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Improve Reg

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:47 pm
by melipone
Just want to say first, I love the server. Really enjoy playing on it and appreciate the hard work put in by admins in their free/unpaid time :) . So that out the way, I have a suggestion that should improve the servers for the majority of the players but might come across like i'm being negative so apologies in advance.

Reg is a bit hit and miss at times. Sometimes its great, sometimes you stand there shooting someone with good aim, small bursts and nothing registers on the player. I play with maximum rates, high FPS, a good connection and lowest interp and low choke so my side of things isn't the problem.

It is people using default rates that causes bad reg imo. Why have a 66tic server when people are allowed to play it like its 30 tic? Most people that play on the server don't mess with console settings. They just leave everything at default. These players cause bad reg imo and all that needs to be done is setting the minimum rates a bit more realistically. I can't realistically see why someone would need 30 updaterate, 30 cmdrate unless they have 30 FPS, and how someone can play well with 30fps I don't know...if they do then why should people with decent PC's be penalised because someone hasn't upgraded in the last 5-10 years? Either their PC is old or they have a very bad connection and tbh 30 updaterate/cmdrate isn't going to fix that. People are kicked for high ping, but low rates are just as bad if not worse, though its less obvious to a spectator that they have a problem. If they have low FPS they just need to turn down some settings..I bet even an old pc by 1.6 standards could squeeze out 40FPS minimum with the right config.

So I humbly suggest at least 40 updaterate/cmdrate - people who don't mess with default settings won't even notice - in fact they will probably notice that they get more hits on players, although they will be hit more often too...

Big ass thread, and I have more! Just a quote I agree with from another thread that came up when I searched:

Mr Tortoise wrote:If you have choke u have 2 options
1) lower rates
2) reduce game cpu usage or reduce background cpu usage.

LD its a case of relativism.

Most people play with higer rates than default... because of this if u have interp_ratio at 1 you have an interp which reflects your own rates .... the problem is that you do not want to interp based on your own rates ... you need to be interpolating player positions based on THEIR rates as that is what determines the frequency of player position updates. There is an asymetery that interp_ratio doesnt recognise.

This is why someone with a crap connection jerks on your screen. And thi sis how you can easily tell that they are rate hacking ... once you find the good interp you invert it to find their rate (its usually 10 or an interp of 0.1 - unsuprisingly, this could be why its the default value and why the minimum rate possible is 10)

Also I hasten to add the servers have all been upped to 60 tick ... why is this? Because high numbers give TC pleasure? Nope, its because the game simply performs better and is more fun to play with higher rates. Players with lower rates activley (albeit perhaps unknowingly) destroy other players experiences hence why having low rates is known as rate hacking and also why it should be discouraged.

If you are interpolating at 0.01 of a second and someone cmdrate is 10 then you will display them 10 times in a row in the same place before there is a position update ... because the frequency of your updates is so high the frame before which you are interpolating from shows no movement and this is what causes the jerking. Your interp needs to be set to a value reflecting the biggest rate hacker to maintain an aesthetically pleasing game. Of course the higher your interp value the worse your reg so its a downward spiral. Large interp = large uncertainty

The only answer is to force higher rates as hardware improves. It is redily accepted that valves defaults provide a somewhat playable experience, but that experience is not precise and as accurate as it could be and it has a negative effect on anyones experience who uses higher rates.

Im not saying enforce match rates btw - its a fun server. But it is one of the reasons good clans start to tend away from public servers (alnog with them preferring to play as a team) imo.

the default rates were valid for the game 2 years ago ... apply moores law. More than that look at your perceptions, yes persistance of vision is around 35 fps, but you can feel much more accuratley than this, good 75 tick servers have much better reg than good 60 tick, you can feel the difference. 30 tick is a joke, bullets vanish there is a noticably annoying delay when shooting people around corners.

When quake3 came out people had a hard time getting fps ... now people wont play it unless they can hit that magical 128 fps ... same with q2 - the reason in quake games is that the physics is related to fps ... in this game that is not the case, but reg and your rates are related to your fps.

If you have to play with cmdrate 30, id suggest getting an extreme fps config, lowering your res, texture, details, and sound quality. Close some background processes and really try to squeeze those fps out ... it makes a huge difference. Close internet explorer/firefox windows to free ram. Try using launch options to reduce dx level (-dxlevel 80 or 81) - you only need to use this command once, if you leav eit in launch options you will have to reset gfx every time.

btw i play in 800x600, low everything an fps config to clean things up - dxlevel 90 as that gives me higher fps than 81. In clan games i average 80fps (drops to 30-40 on nuke with lots of smoke + big fights) on here (#2) I think i average around 50 so i set my rates to 50. the resona i play with these settings is that I play the game to play css not to look at pretty graphics ... youd be amazed at the difference it makes to your game and enjoyment.

I dont get bad reg often, but i do play against some people who are laggy - you can tell because they either shoot WAY before its humanly possible to or you shoot them and they die half a second later. Valve have coded the game to that its very hard to tell when it is you that is lagging.

Anyway sorry that got a bit longer than expected but there are lots of points that entwine.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:17 pm
by alias
I agree its a pain to miss sometimes when you should get a headshot (especialy since im a noob anyway).

However, 30fps doesnt allways mean a 5 year old pc. Many people that buy a new pc do pick a cheap one. IT might do well for games at that time but after 3 years the fps they get could drop extremely much making css laggy. This isnt allways the fault of the gamer himself. Many dont have the money to buy a good game pc and their parents dont want to spend alot of money on just a pc. This forces them to play at crap pcs after 4 years that many times even barely reach the 30 fps. And to them saying that they must play 1.6 is no excuse. They bought for the game and so should be able to play it (and i 100% agree with them).

What i do wonder however is why they do go to a 64 player server with such bad pcs. A little bit gamer already knows that less players means less lag.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:35 pm
by melipone
Let me try a little analogy, which may suck but here goes:

Having minimum rates for the reasons you put is like 90% of people running in a race having to run at the pace of slowest, overwieght, unfit 10% ..its just not right :D

I would say 90% of players on UKCS have at least 40 fps minimum, or it is within their means to but just choose to play with better graphics. My old PC, an Athlon 2 gig with 9800le (like 4-5 year old PC) could manage at least that running dx9 mode and default graphics.

I suspect some people just like to be able to run about not getting hit, spraying and getting luck shots, but that might be a bit cynical. I think most people just don't tweak their configs at all so end up with minimum rates.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:42 pm
by TuPac
Would there be any problems to set the defaults at 66, 66?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:46 pm
by melipone
Only that if someones FPS goes below 66 they would start getting more choke. The server would, imo, be better all round though for the majority with PC's bought sometime this decade :D

30 though to me is far too low.

Also the server would have to be able to sustain 66, 66 for all players without lagging.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:32 pm
by Duracellbunny
well if i look at my config i get 450 fps on legos and a chook of 1 and loss of 1. So dont think the FPS sorts teh reg prob tbh.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:45 pm
by melipone
Not sure what you mean there mate.

1 choke is nothing. 1 loss is more important but still more likely down to your ISP than anything game related and not that significant.

Try playing with FPS below 66 (I assume you have rate 30000 (25k for ukcs2) and 66,66 updaterate, cmdrate) and you should see your choke spike much higher than 1 :D . Then you will get worse reg on everyone, not just people with bad rates.

If you get bad reg with 1 choke, 1 loss, max rates then you have done everything you can do on your end, the rest is stuff out of your control, like network probs, server overloaded, people using bad rates etc.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:49 pm
by Duracellbunny
well im not into all of that just the normal settings ingame with my gfx.... fps_max set on 0. Thats all (wich i allways need 2 redo because it doest remind my settings:S)

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:02 pm
by melipone
If you want stuff to be saved so you don't have to type it in the console, go to your steamapps/username/counter-strike source/cstrike/cfg directory . Then make a copy of you config.cfg, open the copy, delete everything in it, then put your commands in 1 command per line. Save it, close it, right click it and rename it to "autoexec" (without quotes). It should now be autoexec.cfg . Done..each command will be set without typing it in console each time :) . You may have to type exec autoexec.cfg in console once

You have default rates I guess?

Copy and paste this into your autoexec if you want the same rates as me

rate "30000"
cl_cmdrate "101"
cl_updaterate "101"
cl_interp "0.015"
cl_smooth "0"
cl_interpolate "1"
cl_lagcomp_errorcheck "1"
cl_lagcompensation "1"
cl_interp_ratio "1"
net_maxfragments "1280"

If you have a good connection and constantly high fps, over 66, then these rates should work well..cmdrate/updaterate will go to 66 on UKCS

You might want to copy your config.cfg before changing anything incase you don't like the rates..also might take getting used to low interp. Default interp is 0.1, which means you see things happening 85ms later than the 0.015 interp, but if you have a bad connection this could make reg worse.. but 0.1 is too high imo, puts you at a bit of a disadvantage.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:06 pm
by Dancing Hippo
I use default.

Cry more.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:13 pm
by melipone
Try to be constructive if you have something to post, ta.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:26 pm
by Dym
Rate of 30 (updaterate/cmdrate) means - 30 samples (netpackets) per second, plus whole game compensating many things there - for example choked netpackets (not all).

Melipone - if you want tell that Your reaction times are better than 1/30 second (reaction time: about 33 ms), you only making me laugh, try your reaction times here:

If you get lower than 150 ms (without cheating - only one click after you see green light) YOU ARE GOD and we speaking about 33 ms here... and 16 ms if rates are set to 66 LMFAO.

Moreover - if you set your rates higher than 30 (let's say 66) it can cause additional choke so person with higher rates can be even harder to hit than person with lower rates.

Default rates are good for public server, higher are recommended for lan games with not so much players like in UKCS.

Im always laughing at ppl who moan about rates and even demands rates of 100

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:33 am
by melipone
Its got nothing to do with reaction times. Don't know where you got that from. Have a look at some websites mate, you won't see anything about reaction time when it comes to your rates.

Sending 33 updates to the server is not as accurate as 66. The game has half as much information to determine both players position at the moment each person clicks. The game has to guess more with lower amounts of information coming from the player and more mistakes happen. With very low rates people look less smooth - fewer frames to judge where to shoot, after like 35 its harder for the eye to perceive this but it still affects the server. Having slow or fast reactions has nothing to do with this.

Choke is mostly down to your fps being lower than cmdrate/updaterate and also depends on the server's resources.

Theres loads of websites, but you could start here for some info: ... urce_rates

Oh and I had a quick go on that site, my reactions were average 0.2222 :D Had some wine though so could be better

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:29 am
by sentinal
Dym wrote:
Default rates are good for public server,


p.s here is a sponge

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:28 am
by vikingclan
i voted no cuse im scared ill only get killed even easier.

but i must add i have a new pc which only gives me 20-40 fps with cl_showfps 1

and ive had these no reg stuff

like 7 deagle headshots in someone back but no hit.
or 30 shots m4 spray on the head area and no hits.
anyways yah...

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:48 am
by Little_Devil
@ Sent :lol:

I don't know why people complain about rates on a public server with such a large capacity :roll:

It is not the rates that are the issue, but lost packets and ping times, that and the amount of interpolation that your own computer is doing, compared with the server interpolation.

No matter how you look at it, given an ideal world, the only difference between someone at 66 rates and someone at 33 rates is the fact that with a rate of 66 the server has received 6 packets of information as opposed to 3 for a 33 rate, when it calculates relative positions at times of a hit. :?

The difference being ofc, that in the real world, packets get delayed by the ISP's who buffer data (variable), dropped packets and the fact that some ISP's can be variable in time over any given route to a server.
If you play LAN you will notice your accuracy increasing, not just because your tick rate is high, but you have taken out the biggest hurdle, that being the internet.

My net connection can vary by as much as 40 mS, and together with buffering, could be out by as much as 70 mS in some instances, add to this my 15 mS latency this could be as high as 85 mS to get a command to the server. Some players are actually worse off.
This is for a single packet of data, now suppose for some reason I drop 2 consecutive packets of data, then you can add 45 mS(rates 66) to that time, 130 mS.

Now if the server is looking back in time for 100 mS(not unreasonable) then it will not have had any relevant information from me for around 200 mS as far as a hit is concerned. Even if my rates had been set at 33 this time variance would not have changed, it would still be 200 mS.

btw, you can add to this issue to if your computer is doing some background task or has not got the CPU time, when the next packet is to be sent, the server will do a round robin of all the connected players to the server, and if you miss your time slot, tough, that packet is either lost, or if another packet is not forthcoming then it is used. :?

I must point out, ISP's do not care about gamers, which is why there is so much variance, they only care about the bums on seats surfing the net, the more there are, the more money they get. :lol:

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:11 pm
by vex ichigo
LMAO sent once again you prove why i can never be mad at you! :lol:

i voted yes due to the fact that even if its just a test it would be good to see.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:30 pm
by sphinx
agreed with vex, a test wont hurt anything i think

ps : my reaction was 0.1922

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:54 pm
by gandy
i think alot of people have missed the main point of hit reg.. 50 to 60% of reg is in the mind.. you forget about weapon recoil and assume just because you sprayed a whole clip at someones head it should hit them in the head.

while moving and turning the weapon recoil can increase by 40% or more.. so stop moving, start shooting and crouch and watch them fall :)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:47 pm
by G
i have piss poor reg, and i know how to control recoil ty very much. but i blame my wireless connection more than the server/tick my connection is just plain shite