de_pyramid_ukcs

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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby jihn on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:21 pm

Did not see another thread in regards to Lurkys updated version of this map.

So far when playing the map, it feels like its more about pure rushing numbers. There is less chance for the individual player to make a difference for the team.

The tunnel change is a great example of this, the previous design left CT holding this all the time. But it was a given that CT was always taking this area, so CT becomes overconfident, leaving the next guy to cover that area. This in turn gave a lot of fantastic possibilities for T's, where a few T's could gimp the enemy team severely. This was partiqularly effective when the T's got overrun all the time.
The current design eliminates the bombsite close to CT completely, why would you attack that area when you as a T have
1 - tableroom attack
2 - tunnel attack
3 - attack from DD
at one bombsite? Totally sandwiching the ct team.

Now, in the event that CT are a superior team, T now sits back at 'hole in the wall' as a last line of defence, althou this if futile, because it just turns out as a booring standoff. Before T had that little ledge just on their left side of spawn, providing cover, and a platform for a counter attack/tricking the enemy. Now with the added doorway, and removal of the little wall in this spot, you might as well just make a stairway up there.


The original map has a great design, and i am not one to support major changes to a design that has proved itself over so many years. I am a supporter of doing a performance update on the original map. Not changing it all around.

You have made some fantastic maps, pariah beeing your best by far. But so far, this is not close to your previous achivements.
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby LurkyUK on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:04 pm

Thanks for the feedback.

1st off don't judge the map based on that play through today as the teams were so unbalanced (30v30 and only 1 T died).

I see what you mean about the tunnel, however are you sure a few good moment of getting behind the CTs aren't clouding your judgment about how often that happens? When it does happen it's great for that 1 T that owns everyone but it didn't happen that much. And at the end of the day if you are at that point as a T to enter the tunnel from Bombsite A then the Ts most likely have A and will plant there so there's no need to go into the tunnels.

Another downside to the old tunnels where that you'd get too many CTs randomly go down there, and while down there they are useless. So those 2/3 CTs that used to go down there are now back in the thick of it elsewhere on the map. I see what you mean about the Ts having too much control around A so maybe I could look into getting the CTs in the tunnels easier by maybe having a drop down point closer to them so it will be harder for the Ts to enter that way but I feel strongly about the old tunnels being crap.

As for the ledge just left for the Ts I made that little hole in the wall because of a suggestion that it will make it easier for Ts to rush that way as you no longer and to jump over that wall and possibly block everyone and I think it actually works quite nicely. I could possibly remove those stairs and maybe add more cover for the CTs in table room but I'd like to see how the map plays out for a month or so once everyone knows their way around. I've played this about 4 times now and apart from today it seems balanced. I will keep your thoughts in mind and watch how things play out. It's only been on the server since Friday so I think we should all give it some time before any changes.

I would please ask that any problems you have with any map that you talk in the forums because people are very influenced by the top player on a team and you saying this maps sucks or I like the original better every time it comes on doesn't help.


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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby LurkyUK on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:07 pm

Ill also see what I can do to make B easier to get to. (I hope I'm getting the bombsite names right)


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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby jihn on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:25 pm

I am hoping i am getting the bombsite names correct as well, but i am pretty sure we are in agreement on that bit :p

About the map, i have played it 2 times before today. So its not my first time on it, the player balance was bad today. But even so, i have rarely seen a team get decimated so hard on both sides on any map before.

Another downside to the old tunnels where that you'd get too many CTs randomly go down there, and while down there they are useless. So those 2/3 CTs that used to go down there are now back in the thick of it elsewhere on the map.


To a certain extent this is entirely true, but it is as the T rushing down there and getting behind CT's, then turning the tide of battle. The opposite is very possible as well, where the map may be dominated by T, a ct may be able to push through the tunnel, getting behind the T's in the bombsite.
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby LurkyUK on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:08 pm

How about raising the wall on the bridge leading to B so that CTs camping in the water at the far end can't shoot you? Either that or have a tunnel from the water going to B so there's a way to B from down there


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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby jihn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:58 pm

I almost feel a little blown off since you are not bringing up the new tunnel issue :p

If the plan is to keep the newly designed tunnels, then it needs to be made much easier for CT's to defend. I am not entirely sure how to solve it as it stands?
Add another access so that CT will have a larger chance to get some sht together before T's swarm the area?


I am not sure about the wall, but i think i like your tunnel into B suggestion :)
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby lockwyn on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:55 pm

This is a totally different map now, i did not say its a bad map, but i miss the old one. Why not keep them both?
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby marnick on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:47 pm

I agree with lockwyn
lo all i hope that you have fun
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby marnick on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:48 pm

:geeky:
lo all i hope that you have fun
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby jihn on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:35 pm

Agree with the above.

Have to say i am surprised if the original pyramid has been removed from the rotation in favor of this.
I understand if its run as a short testing period to provide more feedback. But it does feel a little premature at the moment.
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby Lionheart on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:53 pm

I'm doubtful that either map (pyramid/parthenon) can have 2 versions on at the same time ... because that would mean they are played twice as often - and whilst the map versions are different, they are not different enough to justify it. Not to mention the fact it could confuse quite a few players if they keep playing on two very similar maps but with certain different features.


I have checked the player ratings for both maps & the newer versions are indeed more popular in that regard. I still think its best to tweak the newer versions more (as Lurky is doing) rather than simply give up & revert to the old or run both maps....

Gathering feedback on the current version (which is still beta) is the best way to make the final version the best it can be :)
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby astro on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:31 pm

Firstly, i appreciate the time Lurky has put in to update that maps and they do look nicer however in my "personal" opinion the reason why certain maps are so popular, pariah - parth - pyramid is because the game play is good, adjust the maps and add extra routes and change fundamental parts of the map and you change the gameplay. For example if you could improve the fps issues on parth that would be amazing however i prefer the older versions.

Its almost a case of if change is forced upon us then as with all things we will learn to deal with it, but with a choice i would much rather the maps were remade as they were to improve fps and graphics and fix and glitches etc that may have been found.

I would prefer that Lurky could put his efforts into creating new maps rather than mod'ing old ones, as the more maps the better ! i really hope they dont remove the originals as the maps work !
Last edited by astro on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby astro on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:34 pm

Also on the subject of ratings, how long before the map rating vote system is changed so we can get a true representation of a maps popularity ... I.e

1 - Awful
2 - Average
3 - Ok
4 - Good ...

etc ...

change the key combination around and see the % awful people might focus more on what they vote for !
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby jihn on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:36 pm

Actually Lion, that has been done before. With both office and pariah. Office(orig/extended/07) maps were running in rotation for longer, cs/de pariah was only on for a shorter time.


Now you are pulling out the ratings card, and the function itself is good, albeit slightly flawed because of the way maps are rated:

2 Awesome
3
4
5
6
7 Awful

Players will press 1234 to get the popup out of the way. Either because they are busy playing, or they just dont give a sh*t.
'Awesome' is close, while 'Awful' is way over there, and i actually find 7 to be way out of regular reach when playing.
Now most of the players are casuals, playing an hour here or there. And dont bother much with the vote either, press and get it away.
Hell, i still do that if i get the popup while im playing. I will go back and re-rate the map when i am dead, but only because i play on this server and bothers what maps are on it. Had it been on a server i had no connection to, i would not bother re-rating the map.

The 'upgraded' versions have not accumulated a lot of votes yet, and as such they will have a high/higher rating.

Ofc gathering feedback is the best way to improve on a beta map, but should this be done by removing popular regular maps from the rotation? And then going of the odd complaint/praise you can pull out of someone while they are ingame and shooting people?
If you want feedback, its simple, advertise it via the poster system ask for opinions and help. The postersystem is a magnificent way of advertising the community and what people can do to improve on their favorite game.
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby astro on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:45 pm

Just to clarify as well, i would prefer to keep the originals and the new maps if i didn't make that clear. I just hope the new version don't replace the old ones !

More on topic, in regards to the new version of Pyramid i think the boxes that have been extended in high should be reverted back to their original size especially the ones near the bridge and in b bombsite. Other than that the new routes look pretty nifty and the graphics look a lot sharper.
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby Lionheart on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:16 am

With both office and pariah. Office(orig/extended/07) maps were running in rotation for longer, cs/de pariah was only on for a shorter time.


Fair point :) However I don't think either of these examples are currently still happening & I will check why this was stopped....

Now you are pulling out the ratings card, and the function itself is good, albeit slightly flawed because of the way maps are rated


I disagree & do believe they are an accurate reflection. Some players do accidentally/purposefully hit the rating system away - but this happens on every map to a pretty much equal extent. Therefore, whilst the actual % number may not be reliable, the ranking position itself (relative to other maps) is reasonably accurate. For trying to judge thousands of peoples opinions, its a good idea. Of course there is room for improvement & I will discuss if anything at all can be done.

The 'upgraded' versions have not accumulated a lot of votes yet, and as such they will have a high/higher rating.


I disagree again :P A map with less votes may have a low/lower rating than the original. Of course the % may change over time but that is why the beta versions should stay on the server in the mean time for more votes/feedback as well. However, there is no justification that they will automatically have a higher rating rather than a lower rating.

Ofc gathering feedback is the best way to improve on a beta map, but should this be done by removing popular regular maps from the rotation? And then going of the odd complaint/praise you can pull out of someone while they are ingame and shooting people?
If you want feedback, its simple, advertise it via the poster system ask for opinions and help. The postersystem is a magnificent way of advertising the community and what people can do to improve on their favorite game.



It may well be feasible to get a poster designed for ingame use asking for players feedback since the more we get, the better. Basically, what I am getting at, is telling people to come here to merely vote "good" or "bad" is of little use (that's what the ingame feature is good for), but getting people to say what is wrong / what is good, is much much more useful !
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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby LurkyUK on Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:20 am

Hmm what boxes do you mean astro? Is "high" a location on the map?

I'll gladly explain the other boxes to you: The boxes on the bridge used to be 2 low ones that you had to duck behind. The problem with that box model is that you can see the top of someones head over it if you are on the ramp at B but they struggle to see you so you would get, in my opinion, unfairly killed. I changed it to one tall one so that it took up less space and you are behind cover with out having to duck and the confusion about whether or not your head can been seen.

All the stacked boxes around the bridge/table room are the same I just changed the model. The two by that arch used to be the same as the two on the bridge, with the same problem of just the top of your head being exposed. I changed it to one small one that you have to crouch behind and a tall one.

As for the ones at B I made the two boxes by the balcony taller because when the Ts drop down their fist line of cover was that dodgy box model again. As for the ones further back I made them slight smaller because, yet again, a CT could stand behind it and have his whole body covered by the box with just his head popping out over the top giving him a really unfair advantage.

The boxes left of A in the dark undercover bit (with that huge box) again suffer from the problem of that dreaded box model. I know a lot of people liked camping behind them because it gave them a huge advantage but I think making it fairer is the way to go? Valve have done the same thing with the CSGO version of dust2. They have taken away the models where just your head is visible and either made the cover taller or shorter and that's pretty much what I have done here. I hope you all understand what I mean by this and If you have time I'd love it if you can privately load both of them up and compare the box heights I hope you can see that this is better. My aim was to make the cover either higher then the player or low enough to expose your chest as well as you head

Oh and I may start doing a new map of my own design (so far I've only done de_blitz_ukcs) but the reason I started all of these remakes was because up until a few months ago I had a crappy PC and these custom maps ran really bad so I just wanted to sort the frame rate thats why I did pasdequartier, parthenon and nioaroon especially because they run bad on a lot of peoples computers. I have a de_courthouse_final and de_desert_atrocity file that I was messing around with but don't worry I've put them to bed now my pc is good :)

Last edited by LurkyUK on Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby LurkyUK on Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:25 am

And I understand you don't like these being "forced" on you but they've only been on the server a week I believe, and I just ask that you give them a chance. Even if you don't give feedback on the forums I do watch people play when I'm dead and I study how the flow and balance of the game goes so everyone does play a part in making this and you guys are great at finding bugs.


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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby LurkyUK on Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:30 am

lol and I'm not blowing you off jihn I'm looking into ways to make the tunnels better so I'll keep you updated. The CT's do have a good chance of getting there first via the water way if they go B then off the bridge to that entrance but I do see you're point that a slightly slow, not quite with it CT team will struggle to take control. And one of these days I'll learn how to quote people on forums so I can do everything in one post :D


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Re: de_pyramid_b1

Postby jihn on Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:39 am

Lionheart wrote:
With both office and pariah. Office(orig/extended/07) maps were running in rotation for longer, cs/de pariah was only on for a shorter time.


Fair point :) However I don't think either of these examples are currently still happening & I will check why this was stopped....


Well, Unlimited/07 is still on #1, but both do not show up as regular maps. I am pretty sure 07 shows up as a guest map only.
This was stopped simply because there ended up being too much office, orig always got voted on, despite it playing horridly on #1 because of the amount of players. Next on the map vote could be extended, then dust 2, then italy, then orig, then extended again. Not something that works well, the casual guy playing for an hour might find it fine. But if the regulars of UKCS are not backing it, then it is not something that should be supported. It is the regulars who start up the servers every day. It is the regulars who donate money to help keep the servers running.

The above was 'completed' maps however.

Lionheart wrote:
Now you are pulling out the ratings card, and the function itself is good, albeit slightly flawed because of the way maps are rated



I disagree & do believe they are an accurate reflection. Some players do accidentally/purposefully hit the rating system away - but this happens on every map to a pretty much equal extent. Therefore, whilst the actual % number may not be reliable, the ranking position itself (relative to other maps) is reasonably accurate. For trying to judge thousands of peoples opinions, its a good idea. Of course there is room for improvement & I will discuss if anything at all can be done.


We have to agree to disagree then. If the ranking position itself relative to other maps is to be accurate, you also need the map to have the same amount of votes/playtime as the other maps you are comparing it to.
You cannot compare ratings on a map pushed into rotation 2 weeks ago to one that has been around for the past 6 years.

Lionheart wrote:
The 'upgraded' versions have not accumulated a lot of votes yet, and as such they will have a high/higher rating.


I disagree again :P A map with less votes may have a low/lower rating than the original. Of course the % may change over time but that is why the beta versions should stay on the server in the mean time for more votes/feedback as well. However, there is no justification that they will automatically have a higher rating rather than a lower rating.


Ah, it may indeed have a lower rating. This will ofc happen if you put in a map that looks bad, and plays even worse. But unless the map is that bad, casual joe will still vote it as a 2-3 map. Again, because he mashes his keys to get rid of the popup box. Again, giving an artificial high %.

Lionheart wrote:
Ofc gathering feedback is the best way to improve on a beta map, but should this be done by removing popular regular maps from the rotation? And then going of the odd complaint/praise you can pull out of someone while they are ingame and shooting people?
If you want feedback, its simple, advertise it via the poster system ask for opinions and help. The postersystem is a magnificent way of advertising the community and what people can do to improve on their favorite game.



It may well be feasible to get a poster designed for ingame use asking for players feedback since the more we get, the better. Basically, what I am getting at, is telling people to come here to merely vote "good" or "bad" is of little use (that's what the ingame feature is good for), but getting people to say what is wrong / what is good, is much much more useful !


My point was, getting ingame feedback is not particularly viable, people are busy playing the game. Not spend time writing feedback with limited characters in between deaths. If people are encouraged to come here on the forum and make a post, i sincerely doubt that they would write a simple 'good' or 'bad' as you are suggesting.

**gtg, bdap party, may have more to add later**
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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