*feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

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*feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby jihn on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:49 pm

So lurkyUK has yet again done a lot of hard work, and spent valuable time modifying a good map. We all appreciate your hard work Lurky.

- Pros

Larger T spawn
(less block!)
Disabling defuse from tunnels below B bombsite
(no annoying defuses through a wall)

-Cons

Textures bring back the old look.
(Maybe its just me, but i like the old lightening and look of parthenon)
Adding another CT entrance to balcony just in front of T spawn. Boxes in front of ct spawn on the right side.
(with teamwork ct could get in here as it is, but with the update it proves even more difficult for the T's to attack and hold.)
Added steps by temple on right side of CT spawn.


-Suggestions
Basic parthenon, add another tunnel entrance to bombsite left side of CT spawn. So instead of 1 ladder leading into the bombsite, have 2 leading into it.
Lets do small changes together gradually, big sudden changes to well established maps are difficult to work with.
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby Azzy on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:58 pm

I'm in agreement on this.
T spawn is a dream now but the textures don't look as good as previous version.
The boxes on the side when rushing balcony as a T to then be wiped out by CT's flooding through that hole is just pants. 2 routes for CT and 1 for T on balcony is unbalanced.
I love how you can't defuse from under the bomb site, also being able to plant further along the platform means easier to defend on angles.
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby Little_Devil on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:29 am

Lurky has been working hard with a number of maps and actually we are up to the 3rd beta of this map now :)

de_parthenon_ukcs_b3

Improved version with bomb site at B moved so players cannot defuse from underneath through the map texture.

Any constructive feedback on any map is of course welcome, with suggestions of what could be done to improve the maps.
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby LurkyUK on Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:39 am

I think you are alone in thinking that the old versions looks better. The textures are stretched over twice their intended size and look pixelated. I know you and azzy did nothing but bash every change while we were playing but most other people liked the new look. I think giving it time for you to get used to is the best idea because some people just flat out hate change at first (during testing someone said they hated this version before the 1st pistol round even started)

Why do you not like the added steps at far side with the pillars? It helps the T's because they can get there first and adds a tiny bit more cover from the snipers from the other side of the parthenon. Also if a T makes it to the far pillar on those steps they have a perfect view of the CTs going onto the boxes to get in the balcony. The reason I added those boxes is because, like you said, the CTs could get in there anyway by boosting so I thought I'd just eliminate the extra work for players. Turing it from a window into a balcony will also help the Ts because they will have a better shot of the CTs rather then just at their head popping out a window. I don't think two play tests is enough to come to a conclusion so we'll see how things play out once people know the small changes and I'll definitely keep an eye out for how the new balcony plays out :)


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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby jihn on Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:22 pm

Well, thank you for clearing that up LD.

************
Lurky, first off, i am not Iceman. Second, i was not the only person there making a note of the new look.

You appear to be taking this a little personal.. Not all changes you did were bad.
The complaint about your new parthenon version 'before pistolround even started' may be related to the new look, but i dont know. Neither do you if the person did not elaborate on his comment.


The steps & boxes
Steps on far side of the pillars? I am talking about the steps surrounding the entire temple on right side of CT spawn. It used to be 2 steps, now you have increased it to 4 steep steps. Its a pain for scouters, if you have a look its a pain both ways. A CT standing behind those steps will barely have his head visible over the steps of the edge. Making it even harder for those terrors to take them out if they pose a real problem.
Terror should not need to hold up yet another front when taking balcony, it is currently hard enough as it is. Adding those boxes as an additional quick accesspoint for CT makes taking the balcony entirely moot. A terror will not make it to the far side of the pillars, and then stand there picking off attackers rushing into that window. He is way too exposed to have any particular success doing that.
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby LurkyUK on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:59 pm

OK I can see what you mean about the steps around the Parthenon (that's what the temple is called, I only found that out recently lol). You didn't explain what the problem with the steps were in the 1st post. you just said its a con and no explanation. I need to know why because I get so many people giving suggestions and saying certain things suck with no reason what so ever. If those steps are causing the CTs to just have their heads pop out that's a big pet peeve of mine in this game so I'll lower them again but I need you guys to help out spotting this stuff because there's only so much I can see with bots and initial play tests.

The balcony box was a suggestion I got during a play test and I liked it so I added it, but then that annoys other players. If I add another ladder to B I'll make you happy but I'll get other people moaning. My goal was to keep this map as true to the original as possible while fixing the lag people got. I'll put the boxes by the balcony back the way they were and lower the Parthenon so it'll be pretty much the exact same layout as the original, only with a much better frame rate/bigger spawn that comes with this version and leave it as that :)

As for the comment about people moaning before the pistol round, It was just an observation during one play test that some people moan straight away before giving it any chance so it's hard to work out if someone has figured out a genuine bad point about the map or if they are moaning for the attention. And I am genuinely shocked that you think the original looks better. Like I said the textures are stretched way too much and look ugly and you can see some dev textures that the guy used.


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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby lockwyn on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:02 pm

Thanks for working on this map Lurky. I know one of the changes you have done to this map, is to reduce the lag. That was one of the first things i noticed on this version and that is very much welcomed :) Parthenon is one of the most popular maps on UKCS, also one of my favorites. Therefore i want to share some thoughts about the changes that you are working on.

I have to agree with jihn about the texture thing. Visually I like how the old parthe looks better. Maybe old habit, thats just how it is. I miss the old temple on the right side as CT. The old version of that temple is a lot higher, and the rushes people do as T on the left side, are much more difficult now than before. That change makes it a lot more difficult to take out the campers/snipers that hide at the end. Too much change after my taste I would like to see that change back to how it was before. This popular map have been played for many years, and over time, players have developed different tactics on how to play it. I personally dont think this map need so many changes.
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby LurkyUK on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:16 pm

What do you mean the old temple was higher? you mean the new one is higher/too high?

edit* I just realised that you probably didn't see my message before you posted yours. I will lower the temple into the same position as it originally was, now that I have been given a actual explanation of why the higher one poses problems :) I'm glad I didn't post this _b3 version as the final now


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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby jihn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:18 pm

*editing

I would still like a slightly darker texture tone for the walls, i am not sure how much work it is for you to test something like that out? Currently its just sooo damn bright
Ofc, i could be wrong on two ladder entrances on B, but that again should give CT's a better chance at the bombsite itself.

But yeah, first lets see how it changes with lowering the steps on the parthenon temple. And how the box change is working out.
If for some reason the box change turns out to be a disaster for the CT, i do have another suggestion.
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:39 pm

I have noticed a few players complain when the textures on maps are brighter than the norm. Probably because they have their graphics tweaked to provide a brighter map image normally, and the lighter textires make the map appear too bright in comparison. Variations in contrast and brightness that are used for many of the older maps, probably do not translate very well to the brighter maps.
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby LurkyUK on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:54 pm

Hmm interesting point LD. I have my brightness set properly so barely visible is barely visible and the brightness of this is fine. I can change the textures no problem jihn so ill play about with it and maybe PM you the results. No one complains about brightness/textures in Parthenon_beta and this uses the same. That's why it's hard to judge if it is a problem or people stubborn to change. You think parth_beta looks bad as well?


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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby lockwyn on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:58 am

LurkyUK wrote:What do you mean the old temple was higher? you mean the new one is higher/too high?

No, i mean that the old temple was higher. The entire old temple is missed. I also miss the rushes that was possible on that map,
if you had a good spawn. It was difficult to rush left as T, a great and fun challenge. If you succeed, you get rewarded to take
out all the snipers that camp at the end there. But now, this is even more difficult.

I always play with max brightness, makes it easier to spot enemies that camp in dark places ;)
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby Lionheart on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:19 pm

I always play with max brightness, makes it easier to spot enemies that camp in dark places


That is your texture problem :P The textures would look way too bright for you - but that's because you attempt to gain an advantage in darker maps !
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby Little_Devil on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:21 pm

I tend to think a common framework of a view point should be used, when discussing these maps.

As with all stage work, left and right are viewed from the stage looking at the audience. Stage left, and stage right, which is opposite to what the audience sees :)

If we take CT as the reference point, then we can say building to right of CT spawn, likewise a reference from T would be building to left of T spawn. Rather this than the temple is too high, since people may take any of the buildings as being a temple in some way, not too bad with this map, but on other maps it becomes more complicated. :)

Lionheart wrote:
I always play with max brightness, makes it easier to spot enemies that camp in dark places


That is your texture problem :P The textures would look way too bright for you - but that's because you attempt to gain an advantage in darker maps !


I don't think it is that so much, since many players do this. What the problem is, is that when nearly all the maps have crappy textures, and are dark then increasing graphics brightness is a normal thing to do. However when better brighter textures come along, the difference between the levels of brightness between old and new maps becomes a problem.

In the past where graphics were slower and CPU/GPU power was at a premium, darker textures were used to give increases in speed, these days with CPU and GPU processor being advanced, these sort of textures are no longer needed.

I do tend to think if all the maps had newer textures and were brighter, then players would not complain as much. Likewise, if the disparity of brightness between old and new was not so great then the moans would die. In comparison to the old parth textures, the new is very bright, but then again it is also brighter when taken against other maps that players are used to. If the brightness level were to be reduced to still be higher than the old parth, but dimmer than at present, I reckon people will say it is a lot better :P
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby lockwyn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:27 am

Lionheart wrote:
I always play with max brightness, makes it easier to spot enemies that camp in dark places


That is your texture problem :P The textures would look way too bright for you - but that's because you attempt to gain an advantage in darker maps !


I think that most of the CSS maps are too dark in general Lion. Turning brightness levels up to max makes the best CSS experience for me. I have played with these settings for years and dont got any texture problems with it ;)
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby jihn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:35 pm

Hi again Lurky

I consider PartheBeta to be too bright as well. That is a map that comes on less often however, and is not as popular. And it never will be.
Your remake of parthenon however might turn out as a real successor of the current parthenon map, and as such i think we should do the best we can to ensure that we all get a map we can enjoy.

I think everyone here would be glad to help you create the best map possible.
As lockwyn is saying, most maps have a dark tone, and most players are probably running brightness on full within the game.

I agree with lockwyn that the parthenon temple itself should get changed a little more towards the old one, in terms of how high/big it is.

Also, does the open space in the CT spawn area have the same dimensions as the original map. Because it seems to be a little bit tighter?
"The rover batteries have 18kwh of juice. The oxygenator alone uses 44.1kwh per sol. See my problem?
You know what? "Kilowatt-hours per sol" is a pain in the ass to say. I'm gonna invent a new scientific unit name.
One kilowatt-hour per sol is... it can be anything.. um...I suck at this ... oh FK it. I'll call it a "pirate-ninja".
All told, the Big Three need 69.9pn, most of that going to the Oxygenator and Atmospheric regulator."
-Mark Watney 'The Martian'
If you want something done, select a busy person‚ for the other kind has no time. - based on Elbert Hubbard
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby LurkyUK on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:46 am

I'll post my progress here so I can get feedback

http://files.ukcs.net/11739/parthenon.zip

I've lowered the brightness as the new lighting was not something I was passionate about keeping so I'll compromise
The Parthenon now has the same dimensions as the original (except in height, sorry). All the columns around it are the same width as before (ukcs_b3 has really skinny ones) and its only 2 steps high so that will stop the snipers having an unfair advantage (something I didn't notice until you mentioned it now all I see is little CT heads popping out in the background)
The sunlight is the same as the original and I've replaced a lot of the white brick textures with the darker/golden bricks that the original uses, albeit using the correct scale so they don't look stretched. I think it has a nice balance now.
I've added some ivy to add colour to some of the walls. I can't add windows because there isn't a window model that fits in on this map so it's hard to decorate the walls.
I've lowered a wall at the back right (to the CTs) so you can see more background trees/mountains. I don't think it will affect gameplay at all as there was never any need to bounce grenades off that wall anyway.
The boxes/balcony is bad to its original state so you need to boost to get up there again
The layout of the rest of the map is the same as I didn't change that in the first place. So apart from inside the Parthenon at A the layout is the same. I don't think I will have the inside the same as the original because the scale is very weird and it feels like I'm playing one of those rat maps when I'm inside A.
Let me know what you think. The reflection on the ramp going up to B isn't staying, I was just testing out a high res reflection but I don't think it looks good.

I do want to create a great map. I'm only trying to help UKCS out and contribute. A lot of other servers have their own versions/extend versions of maps but they are usually bad quality. I think it's a great thing for UKCS to have good quality custom maps built specifically for this server that run really smooth with 64 players. I've already seen a few other servers playing my _ukcs maps as well so it's some advertising as well as some reassurance that they are pretty good. I would just appreciate it if you guys were more positive about making things better rather then complaining every time one of these maps come on because it's going to convince newbies who don't even know the originals that these versions suck, when I think it's more about not wanting to relearn the slight differences.
I know I keep saying people just seem to hate change but I'll give you a few examples. No one complained when I released cs_exile, which was based on cs_italy_reloaded_final, because this server didn't run that map so people didn't know the differences. But when I make a change for it to become de_exile_ukcs (which I think is so much better) everyone moans because they are used to the old one.
Same with pariah. I don't believe this server used to run cs_twilight back in 2006 so when I updated that to become pariah no one complained but now I've done this de_pariah_ukcs people moan about the change. People on SkyBlueGaming in 2006 however, did moan like hell about the original pariah because they did run twilight and hated what I did to it.
Once people get to know the new versions they'll soon stop going on about "I prefer the other version". de_pasdequariter_ukcs, de_nioroon_ukcs, de_exile_ukcs and I suppose de_3rdstreet_ukcs have been on the server for a while now and no one does this any more with these. they just play the map and hopefully enjoy it.
lets all just make the server better :)


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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby Azzy on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:11 pm

I just wanted to comment on the changes to the maps part of your last post Lurky.
Obviously this is just my personal opinion.
- Nioroon was awful, the new changes make this map feel more balanced.
- 3rdstreet was a dire map, I would always leave when this came on, now I still dislike the map, however the changes have made it nicer to play so I will play a few rounds at least.
- Pasdesquartier has always been a map I've done well on but disliked, think it's just the layout I don't know. But the changes, changed the way people play the map now. More rushes right of T spawn instead of many moons ago of every T rushing left. The bomb is planted more. It works.
- Twilight is an awesome map in theory. However, put UKCS player count into that map and the often imbalanced teams, it becomes a camp fest and players tend to get annoyed by this and start abusing the campers because they camp. Pariah brought in a new dimension to the map and although created on the same principle are completely different. The de_ version has always been better than the CS version. There are changes to this one that are good and bad, but that is expected. The map still plays pretty much the same but both sides have a few extra places to help them achieve an objective or kill.
- Exile, I can't say I recognise the map name to associate it to the map so I can't comment on this one. I know I've played it but must not be one of preferred maps.
Fantastic work.

- Partheneon is arguably one of the most, if not the most popular map on the server since it arrived. This is obviously going by the regular player base and not not new players comments and attitudes. Any change to this map is going to kick up a stink, the only issue has pretty much been some people lag on it and T spawn is tiny. T spawn is now massive and is a major plus! Less people complain about lag now, is a major plus. But even the change of detail on the walls etc is going to annoy people and being told "Everyone dislikes change, give it time", in some cases it's change that people don't understand. Example, I added a tunnel here to balance the map out, it gives x team a better chance of defending the bombsite. Adding something like that behind a change helps people understand why something has been added to a map, they may not agree but can see the logic. This obviously doesn't work for all players as you will get some who will point blank refuse change, these are the people I believe you to be referring to. However, feedback and change needs to be 2 way. Back to the map, Parthy in general has a weird design, left for T (out of T spawn) is a challenge but quite achievable. However left for CT (out of CT spawn) is a nightmare at the best of times.

I think it's clear the vast majority of the population appreciate the work you have done and are continuing to do. Having an active mapper within the community brings a much better opportunity in making the servers a better place. In the same way people don't like change, feedback is hard to take on your own work, please don't take any of our feedback as a personal attack on you, we want these maps to succeed. Any good map to limit the number of times office or d2 are on the server the better.

Note: We just need the players on the server to be more constructive and active. Look at these last few threads, a few of the same people offering suggestions. I see so many times, a map being voted on the server, that map starts and people go, "why this map?" When you tell them to rate it, maybe 1 or 2 you see type "/map" if that.
I always vote 1 as the map vote is always at an inappropriate time of the round. I will then go back later and vote 2 or 7. But like the map voting for nextmap the number system is flawed.
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby Azzy on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:33 pm

Map comment: The ladders don't work in the _lighting version.

Apart from that, it looks better :)
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Re: *feedback* de_parthenon UKCS

Postby LurkyUK on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:12 pm

Indeed I turned off a few things to make the map compile quicker so the ladders don't work and I believe there are no player clips so you can jump over walls. You think these textures work better because you said before you weren't a fan of the new look?


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