Muhammad movie in pipeline

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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:00 pm

I'm guessing because people all around the world have heard of the generosity and caring of the great British people :P

Well yes like I said before, there are people who come to exploit the system, but then I would say, deport them. But don't tar all immigrants with the same brush, there are lots of vulnerable people that need help. It's a rich country, we pay enough tax, so why can't the government spend a little of that money helping these people ?? instead of continuously mis managing all the money they tax and effectively throwing it down the drain :?

So when you say 'this lot' well, it's the job of our immigration authorities to find out who is needy and deserves help, and who deserves to be deported.

Blame the Minister of the Department of Immigration ... he and his department are ultimately liable and responsible for letting those who don't need help into the country, through their policies and their system. Not the immigrants, who need help.

Now for your Muslim question. Why do Muslims need to constantly stand up and apologise ? we are constantly being targeted and attacked in the media. We remain silent, for different reasons, some out of fear, some because they want to be left alone. And those voices in the Muslim community that do stand up - and their are voices. Are largely ignored in the media and this is a fact. So you never get to hear about them or see the other side of the coin. Only the negative ugly minority to reinforce the stereotype because it makes good news and looks interesting on tv .. whereas a moderate would not get as many viewers :/

We did not do these acts. The majority. So why should we be responsible and held accountable ?

As for the drawings themselves, yes we are angry. Although we voiced this anger in different ways. Calling for an economic boycott of Danish Goods in Muslim countries for example. Doesn't Israel use similar methods through it's lobbies such as AIPAC whenever it is offended ?

Although people who criticise Islam are of course safe, whereas people who criticise Judaism, Jewish holy figures, or the State of Israel are immediately labelled Anti Semetic and castigated.

You have to understand the principle of Brotherhood and Sisterhood in Islam. Every Muslim is our family member, regardless of race, colour, nationality ... etc. We are all brothers and sisters. And we love all the Prophets from Adam to Jesus (pbut) to Muhammad (pbuh) more than our own Mothers and Kids and family. They sacrificed so much for us and suffered during their lives so we love them that much. God of course loving his creation the most. Look at how Christians love Jesus so much and you will get a sense of how we love Muhammad (pbuh) and the other Prophets (pbut)

so when someone depicts any one of them as something bad or false it hurts us. Like if someone drew a bad picture of your mother and distributed it around claiming lies about her and sullying her reputation (I'm trying my best to help you understand) or someone else you loved. Then you would be hurt and angry at this person wouldn't you ??

Now this is how we Muslims feel, whenever any Prophet is mocked in a drawing like that ... and Muhammad (pbuh) is the closest to us, because on Judgement Day, out of all the Prophet's, God will grant every one of his Prophet's one request. (this is what we believe) Because God said I will grant One of my Prophets the highest place in heaven closest to me for eternity, and so all the Prophet's on Judgement Day will worry about their sins .. for example Adam (pbuh) ate the apple from the forbidden tree ... and will want to have this one special reward from God. And each one of them will use this request. And all the humans that ever existed will ask each one of the Prophet's to intercede with God on their behalf, but they will be worried about their own sins, and scared of God's punishment and Judgement, so finally all the souls who will be suffering in the heat waiting to be judged and fearing for their souls because hell will be visible at this time and all the people will be worrying about all their sins, will go to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and instead of using his one granted 'wish' by God on himself, instead he will intercede on behalf of 'every single human soul' that ever existed for God's mercy ! be they muslim or non muslim ... whatever ! he will bow down, prostrating himself in front of God for a very long time in the unbearable heat ! and finally God will turn to him and listen to his intercession ..

I am just quoting the above from memory, so it is not exactly correct (May Allah forgive me) but I hope you can get the idea of the huge sacrifice Muhammad (pbuh) will make for you and for me on the Day of Judgement. This is just one of the many reasons why we love him so much !! and why it hurts so bad to see him drawn in those horrible pictures ... like the bomb for a turban :cry:

And he (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “When you hear the muezzin, say what he says, then send blessings upon me, for whoever send one blessing upon me, God will send ten blessings upon him. Then ask God to grant me al-waseelah, which is a position in Paradise which will be attained by only one of the servants of God, and I hope that I will be the one. Whoever asks for al-waseelah for me, intercession will be granted for him.”

And he (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “Whoever says when he hears the call to prayer, ‘Allaahumma rabba hadhhi’l-da’wat il-taammah wa’l-salaat il-qaa’imah, aati Muhammadan al-waseelah wa’l-fadeelah wab’athhu maqaaman mahmoodan alladhi wa’adtahu (O God, Lord of this perfect call and the prayer which is about to begin, grant Muhammad al-waseelah (a station in Paradise) and al-fadeelah (a rank above the rest of creation), and raise him to the praised position that You have promised),’ my intercession will be granted for him on the Day of Resurrection.”


Ok so the majority protested peacefully is what I'm saying and shouldn't be held responsible for the acts of a minority. Although, i disagree when you say they are extremist and comitted acts of evil ... because if again I use the example someone did the same to someone you loved more than this world ?

Like if they drew a picture of your mom or wife or children as something bad and showed it in the national newspaper to humiliate this person u loved ... then i'm sure you would want to hit them or something !! it's human nature to be angry when someone delibirately does something cruel in this way.

So i would say the drawer of this cartoon is the real extremist who committed an evil act! and those who circulated it with their anti Muslim agenda. similar to the hateful events like 'Draw Muhammad (pbuh) day" and "Burn the Qu'ran day" ... why was it necessary to do this ?

I don't buy the argument that it is for freedom of speech and expression ... it was deliberately done to provoke Muslims and hurt their feelings and create a reaction.

Just because we have the freedom to do things, does not mean we should do them. It means we can do them.

I may have the freedom to do lots of things, but we also have the responsibility to understand the consequences and results of these actions, and what impact they have on others. It is a privilege and should not be abused just for the sake of it.

Why do bad things just because you have the freedom to do them ?

I think it was totally unfair and unjust to do stuff like that.

Your third point. I understand your point of view. It angers me also, to see people who come here and make no effort to learn English and just abuse the system :x On the other hand like the USA which is the beacon of immigration, it can also be a strength, and make the nation more, rather than less as you put it.

Using the USA as an example, it is the rich mix of cultures and immigration that has benefitted it and made it grow strong and prosperous, from the time of Irish immigrants, Scottish immigrants, Jewish, Italian ... and so on.

As for the UK I agree people should learn to respect, understand and learn about Britains history, it's legacy, it's cultural customs and norms, and as a British Muslim of Pakistani origin, I do just that as do many others. So don't just focus on the glass half empty, but look at the immigrants that have made an effort, or are making an effort to integrate into British society and have integrated fully.

The key to this issue you raise is education. Hopefully David Cameron, Nick Clegg and George Osbourne will recognise this problem in society and fund the Education Ministers programmes for Immigrants on British etiquette and customs, English language ... and so on :P and encourage them to do so.

You say partake of it's treasures and rewards .. and that's ok ! But I see immigrants working really hard ! alot earn less than minimum wage and work long hours. And they contribute enormously to this economy. So again I would say we should not always focus on the negatives, but be balanced and look at what they contribute and bring to this country.

Also, you said huge communities of other nations taking up huge portions and not trying to be part of that nation ... etc. Well I could go into history and talk about British enclaves trying to bring Britain to their countries such as Australia, Parts of Africa, India ... etc. But that's too deep and lengthy an issue to make here. I think you understand what I'm getting at though in regards to this ... and even today you have Brits doing exactly the same thing in other parts of the world, forming their own enclosed communities ... how do you think the citizens and natives of those countries feel about that ??

That's cool about religion lol, no one is forcing you to believe anything, nor am I. I was just stating what I believe. But death never seemed a horrible prospect, part of the circle of life and all that to me. We live, have kids, die and the kids carry on, and live and die ... continouous cycle. Even if let's just say for the sake of argument when we die, there is nothing, we are just worm food lol ... it doesn't matter to me, as long as I have lived a good productive life :P anyway it's all good.

And there is actually a verse in the Qu'ran that 'forbids' conversion by force, but tells us to leave people alone to do what they want, as long as they don't commit crime and harm others. Then we have to act to stand up and fight injustice, crime, although it further says it is best in the sight of God to forgive when possible.

Your last point - I agree completely. Most of the Prophets (pbut) lived in poverty and their companions too (Like Jesus's disciples, or a number of the companions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

But some Prophets God chose to make powerful and wealthy .. Like King Solomon (pbuh) and purify their wealth. Money in itself is not evil. It is what you do with that wealth that defines if you are pious or corrupt.

In most men and womens cases, it corrupts them and they spend it unwisely. But being rich and wealthy doesn't stop you from being holy and religious, if you worked hard to earn the wealth, why shouldn't you enjoy the fruits of your labour ? This is why we have the Pillar of Zakat - Charity from our income - every Muslim (is meant to) pays 2.5 percent of his income to the poor and destitute (orphans, homeless ..etc)

The so called religious people that have not earned the money, and don't use what they haven't earned for the good of the people ... well your statement is absolutely correct.

I guess these religious leaders love worldly life ... and there are verses in the Qu'ran and hadith that warn about the punishment for so called religious people who hoard their wealth and are miserly. Because God provided the wealth and chooses who should be rich and who should be poor, and just like that he can reverse or change the situation anytime he likes. :P

Peace :cheers:

Last edited by Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:00 pm

sorry I clicked Submit post two times again because of lag - double post :oops: :cheers:

Edit : Ah I have just found the correct sources that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will intercede on behalf of all mankind (every single soul that ever existed) on Judgement Day for the forgiveness of their sins and to let them into heaven and not to go to hell :

http://www.ahlesunnat.biz/intercession.pdf

and

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... 4&topic=65

Sorry for not being able to remember it accurately off the top of my head


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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:38 pm

Do you actully agree with the words you write, because like many religious zelots you contradict yourself in nearly every sentence.

The thing with british, americans and other western countries moving aboard, they tend to take money with them and don`t leech off the country they choose to live in, in many cases improving the local economies'.

I would not turn up in France penniless and homeless and expect them to teach me french, house me, educate me, give me cash weekly, a car, cuddly toy, a loan to start a business, free health care (why are these young man aways in the hospitals?) and demand a stone circles to be build for my religious beliefs'; on top of all that I will tell them all that they live like animals and denounce the very fabric of their culture; the very reason you`re here in the first place. If and when I move to France I will have learnt enough French to get by (but I won`t apply for a call centre job), have paid for a house and would require no extra funding from their state.

And them french need telling! Dam them for bottling Chablis and Fume! then selling it to us brits to drink!
Last edited by quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:56 pm

Mohsin wrote:Image

Statements on these placards include 'CONVERT OR DIE' as my friend above so eloquently put it, but also :

BUTCHER
MASSACRE
BEHEAD
SLAY

before 'those who insult Islam' ... come on give me a break guys ... :| No real Muslim would ever write something this lame. And of course none of them were arrested or charged by the Police even though they are clearly breaking the law ... surprise surprise - Agent Provocateur planned event methinks hmmmm ? :scratch:



I guess they must be jews, chirstians, americans and british in that photo then! I really think this should be moved to the comdey section

It`s also impossible to work for less then the minimum wage in the UK - thats why is called the minimum wage, if thats is the case those people should report their boss,
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ ... G_10027201
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Flare on Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:29 pm

My question was not why dont the majority of Muslims do something about the extremists, I was asking why are they so silent when the extremists do thier horrifics acts but so vocal about a cartoon.

Sorry , I understand in your religion its offensive but I would be more upset about some extremist nutjobs dragging my religion through the mud over some foriegners idea of humour.
It sort of sends the message we may not agree with the extremists but we dont condemn them either, why doesnt the leaders of Islamic faith cut off these extremists ... distance themselves, call them publically enemies of Islam and not to be sheltered.

I am sure you have seen and heard depictions of Jesus or even God in a cartoon, or in offensive jokes... it happens, and its not as bad as blowing up civilians whose only crime is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

By the way , its not a Muslim attack ... I mean there isnt a single religion where nutjobs havent commited attrocities in the name of a belief, I am just curious at this.

... or am I totally wrong in my thinking the complaints about the cartoons was louder than the condemnation of extremists ?
Sometimes keeping an eye on your stats is not a good thing :P

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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Binerexis on Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:49 pm

Nice to see that even here on UKCS, people act like dicks and result to ad hominem arguments in the 'intelligent' sections of the forum.
"Everyone just shut up and enjoy your arena."
"...But we don't enjoy aren-"
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:59 pm

Who has comitted a personal attack on anyone - this is a thread on a movie not thread on religious dogma.
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:41 pm

It's always easy to put labels on people and put them into a small box or category. I see you have put me into the 'religious zealot' box, but I doubt true religious zealots would even accept me into their group lol :P

Money isn't everything. Respecting the citizens, their culture and their laws on the other hand is very important. I have read many a news story about drunken binges, parties, noise pollution, littering ... and other problems and complaints by Spaniards, Greeks and others, because of Brits making their lives a misery and having no consideration for them, their families, or their lives.

Your last statement. Immigrants don't demand anything as a right, they ask for as much help as a country granting them asylum can provide. And as a rich country we can provide a lot of help. And why shouldn't we help others ? Isn't it a sign of good will and appreciating what you have to help others ? No one is demanding 'stone circles' or places of worship to be built either ... they work hard, earn the money and build the places themselves. I haven't heard any Immigrant say to their host country 'they live like animals' can you give me any evidence to support these loose and offensive ugly stereotypes you are making about immigrants ?

I think you should be less selfish, more grateful for what you have, and thank your lucky stars you are not in a position like these desperate people are. Being tight and suffering from 'stingyitis' is not an attractive disease lol :P Think about others, not just yourself and what benefits you and be more giving, it feels good man :cheers:

How do you think a society like ours was built ? From the hard labour of former commonwealth inhabitants, like my ancestors during British ruled India, and all the resources of the land which made the UK one of the greatest, if not the greatest trading powers of the world. I doubt all the resources that helped build this Rich nation and other western nations, could have reached this standard, without the manual labour or natural resources of other peoples they exploited throughout history ...

You say it's impossible to work for less that the minimum wage, simply not true. It is possible and many foreigners are exploited due to this fact. There have even been dispatches, panorama and other documentaries to support this. For example Polish workers on farms, and others to scared under threat to complain. Their bosses use emotional blackmail against them and threaten them, so they don't know who to turn to.

The picture, I'm not saying that they are or are not Muslims, they could be, they might not be, I'm just saying it all seemed suspect, staged and again I say we don't use such words in Islam ... the Language itself was idiotic. And anyone who falls for it and believes stuff like this well ... :roll: it doesn't matter I guess, if it confirms a persons own prejudices, they will see what they want to see and accept things at face value. Trusting the media, govt and any tom, dick and harry 100 percent, just because it supports their own views, even if it may be based on a lie.

Flare, I understand you, and I said, that when Muslims feel they are under attack (like when any community is), they withdraw inwards, and keep silent, because they don't want to be targeted. Muslims as a whole don't have a spokesperson the way let's say the Catholic Church does with the Pope as the figurehead and the Vatican. There are lots of differing types of Muslim - Sufi, Wahabbi, Shia ... etc.

And the answer is, because when we speak, we aren't listened to. We do have some people in the community that do stand up and condemn the acts because they go against the Qu'ran and Hadith - such as September the 11th for example. But these voices are always ignored and the loudest extremist voices are heard and filmed and reported on. These people are not even following their own religion so can we even call them Muslims just because they act in the name of it ?

It says in the Qu'ran not to harm innocents, and that someone who commits murder is as bad as killing the whole of mankind ... just one example of many, I can get you more if you want. So these people are not actually obeying the commandments of their religion and stop being part of that religion once they do something like this. We believe they will be called to answer in front of God on the Day of Judgement for these horrific acts.

We are upset about nutjobs, dragging our religion through the mud, and we are annoyed with the cartoons as well. Their are many Muslims fighting these misguided violent criminals on a daily basis in Muslim countries, so let's not forget that. We are standing up against them and we are condemning their actions, and we are fighting them, even though people may not hear about it as much in the media. The Ulema and Imams are distancing themselves and calling them enemies of Islam if you go into any Mosque you will hear in their Sermons them doing this, and warning Muslims about the dangers of anger and following a misguided ideaology which groups like Al Qaeda are happy to exploit.

There is no suicide bombing in Islam, Suicide is a grave major sin in Islam. There is no killing of civilians in Islam. If you want to understand true Islam, don't look at the actions of the followers. And this goes for any religion. Look at what the religion actually says and teaches and the founder of that religion.

If I wanted to know what Christianity was really about, I wouldn't look at the Crusades, I would look solely at the Bible and commentary. Written sources are the Key. So if you want to know about what Muslims believe and what they are taught to do (even though the followers may not act accordingly), Look at the Qu'ran and the Hadith (sayings and actions of Muhammad pbuh)

we have also condemned the pictures and representations of Jesus (pbwh) and of God, not that we are acknowledged or listened to ... and sadly it's a tragedy that it has become acceptable in western and christian society :cry:

lastly, you're not wrong. But it's not our fault that the complaints about the cartoons are louder than the condemnation of terrorists. People listen to what they want to hear, and the media doesn't want to hear the condemnation by Muslims of these people till they are blue in the face, because then it will portray Muslims in a better light and will make for boring news ... and no one wants to read about peace and good things in the news do they ? .. because it's boring, whereas violence, war and death makes for great viewing on the news and in the papers, and in films and on tv shows :|

We've condemned it, no one wants to listen. Muslims don't agree with their actions, but now we just mind our own business and remain quiet and get on with our own lives peacefully, because we know we aren't going to be listened to anyway. Sad but true fact of life in this world.

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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:42 pm

sorrrryyyyy double post again ! :x why doesn't it just post when i click submit the one time ??? so annoying lol :scratch:


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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:29 pm

These are EU workers, so it does not count - look at the trems of the accord Labour brought in, so now you take the position of british citizen and not a muslim who lives in britain, yet you still feal the need to tell me how to think and what to do(we are the infidel after all and me more than most) - I have never questioned what this country has done for me, unlike your previous posts - I may not be happy with how the country is now as a whole, but thats been another topic. I am happy that you speak up and are against the extremist nature of some of the islamic community, but you are 1 in a few, if your words are ture, but the Quran says different.

I hate all religion it is by far the most evil thing to come from this planet, but I do not begrudge anyone who has religious beliefs aslong as they keep them to their self - which you have gone far enough to offen me; I know people who are buddhist, hindus, muslins, christian, Jews, durids, wicca, jehovah witness, mormons - not at no point have any of them felt the need to bombard me with their beliefs` or anyone else for that fact.

Now, still you try to cause animosity by going back through histroy, will you NEVER learn! it`s 2011 soon move on, FFS! So with all your words, you still look down apond me :wink: as the bible says "the meck shall inherit the earth", anytime soon would be good. And not the infidel should die!
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:49 pm

Nice to see that even here on UKCS, people act like dicks and result to ad hominem arguments in the 'intelligent' sections of the forum.


So he`s personal atttack is not seen? at what point does one go against the other? any way it`s flares fault :D
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:36 pm

I take the position of 'both' a British citizen and a Muslim living in Britain. The two are perfectly compatible in my eyes.

I'm not telling you how to think or what to do and nowhere did I say you were the 'infidel' as you put it and used that word. In fact it was the Crusaders who called the Muslims infidel ... not the other way round. But this has of course been blamed on Muslims. We use the terms Believers and Non Believers.

Neither have I questioned what my country has done for me, I am grateful and love this land. But Muslims think in these terms : the land does not belong to us, it belongs to God and he decides where we are born. So I am grateful to God that he let me be born in such a great country. A true blessing.

Thank you for saying I stand up, but I am not one in a few. All the Muslims I know feel the same way as I do and have constantly expressed this, officially and unofficially. You say the Qu'ran says different, please show me where. I do know what you are hinting at, and I will be glad to explain the context and social situation of that time in which the Verses were revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) by the Angel Gabriel.

If you read it in context, and do not ignore the previous chapter and the next chapter, you will see that Muslim's are 'only' allowed to act in self defence, or defend Muslim lands if invaded by an aggressive occupation force, or if anyone else is harmed, to defend them.

We are not allowed to act or start aggression or violence. It is a big sin and completely forbidden in Islam as is clearly stated in the Qu'ran.

Context is important.

As for keeping religion to myself, well most Muslims do ... until they are forced to defend against false accusations and misconceptions about Islam. Then we feel the need to set the record straight. And as I have recently come back to the forums and seen people spreading bare faced lies as fact about Islam and Muslims. So I have felt the need to speak up as it were. And counter any unfair, biased or misleading information I have seen on a number of posts. God willing I hope I have.

I apologise if you feel I am bombarding you with Islam and forcing my beliefs on you. It was not my intention.

All I want to do is state information as clearly as possible and correct any mistakes people claim about Islam as fact, either through ignorance about Islam, or deliberately setting out to target Islam and Muslims.

Show me where in Islam it says "The infidel should die" ... this is exactly what I am talking about ... :?

I'm not trying to cause animosity by talking about the past (and the present) I'm trying to show that history repeats itself, and that we should remember history as a reminder not to make the same mistakes (especially when it affects others)

Lot's of people would find it convenient to sweep history under the rug and say get over it, it happened a long time ago ... well unfortunately history repeats itself, and the legacy still affects the present today and the future.

I don't look down upon you or anyone, I'm just trying my best every day to be a better person, I'm only human so forgive me when I fail and let my emotions get the better of me. I hope we can understand each other over time and be friends ! :cheers:

And you are right "The meek shall inherit the earth" and all 3 of the Abrahamic faiths are waiting for the Messiah to come and make this possible .. (In Christianity and Islam it is Jesus (pbuh)

Once again I just want to say sorry Quaduski, I was a bit full on and harsh earlier. It was inappropriate and I should not have taken it as personal :cry: <3


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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:54 pm

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire
Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind <- dose this mean all deaf, dumb and blind people are to be killed?
Those who disobey Allah and his messenger (muhammad) will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom <- as burnning with fire was not painful enough?
there are many more do you wish me to list them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel <- the meaning of infidel

It may not say those word but it is meant 100 times over

as I said before, shovel your shit eslewhere - I find you a joke, nothing more - I can bear you as a burden, many others can`t, I`m just glad you found me - my shoulders are wide and my back is strong
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:30 pm

sorry to hear you say that ...

why so full of anger and hate ? :( </3

can you quote me the verse and page numbers where you got this from, it doesn't look right to me. I need to look up the references you gave.

One of them I do recognise is the deaf, dumb and blind one ... no it does not mean deaf, dumb and blind people are to be killed :roll: in fact it states that we are to take care of disabled people

it is being allegorical, metaphorical, symbolic:

These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,

Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, God took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).


It is talking about the hypocrites, those that claim they believe in God, and his revelations, and his messengers, but secretly they do not. It is showing that they have no sense ... that they have sold their faith for worldly life for example.

Like I said before ... it's easy to just pick a line here and there out of any book, out of context, and ascribe (the wrong) meaning to it.

Context is the key. What is written before that line you quote and what is written after always explains it.

Get back to me on the other quotes that you claim come from the Qu'ran, which I don't believe they are ... :|

Oh and using wikipedia to support your argument isn't really strong. Although in this case it supports what I was saying before, the word infidel was used by Christians whereas Muslims have the terms 'non believer or disbeliever'

what's the big problem about that ? If someone doesn't believe in Islam then they are a non believer aren't they lol ?

I am a non believer about many things :wink:

These are the references it leads to on wikipedia that you used :

# ^ "Kaffir", The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Houghton Mifflin Company, 2006. "Islam An infidel."
# ^ "Kaffir" - Mid-16th century. < Arabic kāfir "unbeliever, infidel", Encarta World English Dictionary [North American Edition], Microsoft Corporation, 2007.

and this is the definition of infidel :

Infidel (literally "one without faith") is a chiefly archaic English noun, meaning one who doubts or rejects the central tenets of a religion other than one's own or has no religious beliefs; especially in reference to Christianity or Islam

# ^ "Infidel", The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Houghton Mifflin Company. "An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam".
# ^ "Infidel", Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Random House, 2006.
# ^ a b ""infidel." The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English. 2009.". Oxford University Press. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-infidel.html. Retrieved 2010-06-20.

Islamic

The Arabic word kafir (literally the one who "covers", usually translated as "disbeliever") is the Muslim term commonly translated into English as infidel.[12][13] In the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize the one God (Allah) - atheists and polytheists - and not to religions such as Christianity, Judaism - who are seen as "People of the Book (Ahl-e-kitab)".[10][14][15]

Kafir, like infidel, has also come to be regarded as offensive,[16] thus some Muslim scholars discourage its use due to the Quran's command to use kind words.[17] It is even a punishable offense to use this term against a Jew or a Christian, under Islamic law.[16] Muslims today however do tend to use the term indiscriminately in reference to all non-Muslims.[10]


# ^ a b c "Infidel" in An Introductory Dictionary of Theology and Religious Studies, p. 630

Ok if we look at the word, it is translated into English as infidel as said in wikipedia, so it is the translators fault of those dictionaries that they used the term infidel, when it should have been disbeliever ...

the last part stating that 'Muslims today however do tend to use the term indiscriminately in reference to all non-Muslims' is a load of rubbish ... this is why you can't seriously use wikipedia as evidence to support your argument, because anyone can write anything in an article, and get their source from anywhere, written by anyone and edit it. Wikipedia is not Fact and unreliable lol ...

That single handedly is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard ... we hardly ever rarely use such a term. And if it was used, it would not be used in reference to those who believe in God - Jews, Christians ...

So yes, disbeliever and those who do not believe in God or his revelations is mentioned in the Qu'ran, but due to errors in translation from Arabic into English, they used the term infidel, which is more common to Christianity and has been used much more in Christian texts and literature than Islamic Literature ... peace :P


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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:31 pm

not again ... :shock: :oops:


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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:39 pm

I think fox hunters use the same rhetoric

We hunt foxes, we don`t kill them
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:02 pm

And I think you are pretending to be a muslin - you seem to know nothing of the book you read; and by using a computer you are breaking islamic law, and a gaming site aswell! double no no!
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Flare on Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:03 pm

All I can say is that to a normal average member of the public , like me it seems like the Muslims are quick to condemn even the slightest percieved offence but are quiet about the extremists.

I am well aware of my lack of understanding and information, however the perception of evil is often greater than the reality of evil and thus through ignorance hate is born.

Personally I wish to hear less, dont do this as it offends Muslims, dont do that as it offends Muslims ... I am aware its PC going overboard but you will have to stop throwing your hands into the air and saying ' media what can you do ? ' and be more proactive.
Like this veil debacle that the media have taken and blown out of proportion, some of it is factual...there are enough Muslims that claim its a religous requirement, enough to pour money into it, yet theres others that claim its a old tradition that has no origin in the books but in the olde society.
Pararama ( that silly program on BBC ) showed a large mosque that showed a fair face to the populace , but hid a very extremist view within its walls, taking orders from the 'homeland' on how to deal with the kaffir ( did you know the South African apartheid era took that word and turned it into a insult to black people....similiar in meaning to the word nigger in the old US ).

Dont take my words as offence to you or your beliefs, just as a report on what I feel is the common average outsiders view on the situation.
Sometimes keeping an eye on your stats is not a good thing :P

Some things are painfully obvious, others must be made obvious... painfully
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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby Mohsin on Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:55 pm

er, I'm still waiting for you to show me where you pulled those quotes (out of the air) from quaduski ..

use this website if it helps you to reference, it has 3 english translations of the Qu'ran (Most Muslims read the Yusuf Ali translation I believe)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc ... lim/quran/

If you are going to make a blanket statement, back it up with proof.

You can think what you like, I am a Muslim. And I believe in everything Muslims believe.

You're right that I know nothing of the book I read ... most people don't. Only the wise scholars do, and I do not claim to be one. However what little I do know, I will use to support myself with.

Please show me any unequivicoble statement by any esteemed scholar in Islamic Law where it says Muslims can't use a computer, or technology for that matter ... I think you are just trolling me now :/

Flare if we didn't, the situation gets worse. Look at Christianity, because they didn't make a stand earlier, now they are having problems, with people insulting their religion and crossing the line. How far should we let people push the boundary ? So many people mock and draw bad things about Jesus (pbuh) precisely because they didn't and other things as well, like wider society criticising them for not accepting lesbian and gay priests and bishops for example ... we have to defend our beliefs and values, exactly so that stuff like this doesn't happen and become the norm for Islam. The guidelines are strict, set by God, and it is not for us to decide what is right, and what is wrong, according to our own limited human man made values and ideas.

Again I ask you why we have to be proactive and have to constantly justify ourselves to every non Muslim for the actions of a minority who don't even obey the fundamentals of Islamic practise ... I've answered that point like 3 times already sheesh

Ah yes the veil issue, well this shouldn't be foreign and strange to people as it is common in Judaism and Christianity.

In Christianity, you have nuns, who cover their hair and wear modest loose clothing. In the Bible Jesus himself said :

1 Corinthians 11:6

6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

1 Corinthians 11:7

7 A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.

1. 1 Corinthians 11:7 Or Every man who prays or prophesies with long hair dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with no covering of hair dishonors her head—she is just like one of the “shorn women.” If a woman has no covering, let her be for now with short hair; but since it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair shorn or shaved, she should grow it again. A man ought not to have long hair


In Orthodox Judaism, women wear the head scarf upon marriage.

In Islam, every part of the body is to be covered with loose modest clothing except for the hands and the face. And this is widely accepted amongst the scholars ... so the full 'burqa' or covering the face really is not needed and is an excess. And I can understand peoples grievances with the burqa especially in non Muslim societies. But I support and am all for what mainstream Islam supports - the head scarf to just cover the hair. I don't see the problem with that.

And before anyone says we do force and oppress Muslim women to wear it, just ask any Muslim women who wears it if she was forced, and I'm sure you will find she chose to do so out of her own free will, and will be happy to give you the reasons why she wears it.

Normally, I have found reasons differ and range such as : to connect with their Muslim identity, it's easier to and feel like a Muslim if you dress like one. To be loyal and faithful to their husbands, hiding their beauty from all other men and being modest, so that only her husband can enjoy her beauty at home.

The reasons for women not wearing tight fitting clothes, or hardly any clothes is obvious .. it attracts the attention of males, whereas this protects women, guards their modesty.

And also protects them from rape as a man on the streets attention is usually focussed on women with the skimpiest, tightest clothes ... :| ... and rate of rape, and sexual violence is very high and ever increasing in western countries according to the United Nations Statistics website ... :cry: So this is just one solution.

But don't ask me, just ask any Muslim woman why she chooses to cover her beauty with the head scarf and loose fitting clothes !

There are a lot of good reasons and benefits why Muslims are commanded to have this dress code

I can find your more information about Muslim dress code of men and women if you so require.

But like I said, most of the Scholars have said the full burqa and covering the face is un neccessary, so I agree with them there. And I understand how it can be strange and disturbing to non Muslims to see this. Just try and think of Muslim women dressed up in this similar to nuns lol ... it should help you to understand !! :P

Ah yes I remember seeing documentaries and stuff like Panorama and Dispatches Undercover Mosque on Finsbury Park Mosque - Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri, that sort of thing.

Yes it's sad how those guys hijacked that Mosque and kicked the trustees out of it, in fact there were lots of fights between the Muslims in the Mosque and these guys ! :shock: Radicalisation and brainwashing young kids and young men is a danger and a problem ... so I'm glad they got caught, arrested and punished because they are just adding to the problems and giving the rest of us a bad name.

Luckily, we have a strong intelligence community in this country, like MI5, the Police, undercover agents and reporters to catch people like this and put a stop to their operation before they do some real physical harm.

When it comes to extremists, they need to go to prison. On that I have no doubt. Hopefully then they can be rehibilitated in true mainstream Islam and freed of the warped ideas their exploiters put in their heads.

And actually many Imams make prison visits for exactly this reason, to educate young Muslims and show them the error of their ways, and that the so called 'Imams' they were following had an extremist agenda and were planning and plotting violence and trying to manipulate these kids and young men.

Yeah I know all about South Africa :cry: Even Mahatma Gandhi (rest in peace) was constantly called a Kaffir by South Africans and he was chucked out of his train and beaten in South Africa by the police ... messed up.

He was a great man :D I'm sure you can see a film about his life on google video for free starring Ben Kingsley it's really good ! :cheers: check it out

anyways, don't worry I'm not taking offence and I get your point and where you are coming from. Thanks for raising awareness and bringing this to my attention pal :P


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Re: Muhammad movie in pipeline

Postby quaduski on Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:59 pm

So why, dispel the little you do know onto us then!

Please UKCS can we have a religion section to save us all! it will only get worse
Last edited by quaduski on Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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