BNP Fail

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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Wizav on Fri May 14, 2010 2:48 pm

i think thats very decent of us to do such a thing, im proud to be part of such a gracious nation.


Make hundreds of your fellow brits redundant that have been working there for years then hire hundreds of polish people that cant even speak english, Pay them minimum wage and hire a translater.

OHHHH the graciousness its overwhelming :cheers:


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Re: BNP Fail

Postby sarie on Fri May 14, 2010 3:00 pm

Flare wrote:I can see the problem...

Its very hard to describe what seems to be obvious to many... that Britian is getting more and more people from outside the UK (Like India and Pakistan, along with the EU members and asylum seekers), and it seems the goverment is more intrested in helping those than the 'common brit'...

... without coming off as a racist.

Its made harder by the fact that not all of the UK experiences a lot of 'none british' ( another hard to describe concept... ie what is a brit these days, it aint a white nor is it christian ) people staying near them, and lack that perception.

Part of the issue has to do with how the ethic groups generally stick to themselves and transform the area they live in into 'thier' area (ie a Pakistani region, or a Indian region...) and other group members not of that group are not particularily encourged to remain, and non member dont want to stay in 'that' area.
Its made worse by the percieved issue that certain groups bring in more of 'thier kind' from thier land of origin ( arranged marriges and such) leading to theories by the more paranoid that 'they' are taking over.
The goverment dont help matters much with silly PC schemes, and issues as descibed (cant wave a English flag in case you offend others), or a percieved threat that the british way of life is getting altered to accomadate those who are moving into the country.

--- Below is my percieved opinion, my perception based on my exposure to the issue via media and gossip --- V

I do believe the borders need to be tightened, one step would be to deny benefits unless you are british born or claim by association to a Britsh born citizen by marrige or birthright. This doesnt deny outright entry just benefits.
I would also stop the the commonwealth nations from claiming british citizenship due to the old Empire status, the empire hasnt existed for a long time now and as such Indians , Pakistanis and such shouldnt be able to claim citizenship in the UK anymore.
I could never understand that... how could they fight for thier freedom from the Empire but still want to claim to be part of it at the same time...wierdness.

Anyhow, the UK is too open... look at Australia, or the US ... both have stringent border controls and regulate who may enter without fear of being called racists, why cant the UK.
France and Germany are noted to be unfriendly to potential job seekers in thier countries, especially the French... they wont hire you unless your so specialised they cant get a frenchman to do the job, or you speak french (and do a specialised job no local can do)... the UK translates the frikken forms to foriegn languages to help none english speaking people.


Nice one Flare... that pretty much explains my views also... which I'd given up explaining as everything I attempted to say seemed to come off as racist :P

On your point of groups transforming areas, that is a very common issue in Derby. We have areas around Derby that have become their own little minority areas, for those who know the area, Pear Tree is a great example.
The different cultures don't attempt to integrate themselves into the city; instead they club together and create their own little mini-countries in certain areas of the city where even the signs on shops are translated into their languages and outsiders aren't welcome.

I do think newcomers should be persuaded to at least learn the basics of the English language to make communication easier and more of an attempt should be made to help integrate them into the communities so they don't feel the need to form these little minority areas.


I also agree that the borders should be tightened. Not only are we causing problems within our own country by creating a system that encourages mass immigration, but we're also causing problems for other countries.
For example some of the developing countries desperately need good doctors, but their doctors are moving to our country because it's easy to get in and they benefit from a better life here.
Obviously I'm not implying they're wrong for wanting to move here to enjoy a better life, it's understandable, but if it was harder to come here then perhaps more would stay and become doctors in their own country where they're so desperately needed.

Regarding the interests of our own country, the fact of the matter is we live on an island. It's a small island and there's only so much capacity. We need to encourage skilled workers into areas where we don't have qualified citizens to do the work, and those coming over to genuine work should be entitled to everything a British Citizen is entitled to, including full citizenship after a period of time has passed, but we shouldn't be importing workers when we already have British Citizens qualified to do that work.
We're putting a strain on our housing and benefits system, and we're creating future overcrowding problems.

One thing I do really think should be looked at is those who travel to our country to claim asylum but travel through other safe european countries to get to ours. If they have been through another country where they could have claimed asylum but made no attempt to do so, then they shouldn't be admitted here.
People are seeing the UK as an easy place to gain asylum and they're going through Belgium and France and Germany to get here without stopping on the way.


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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Rico on Fri May 14, 2010 5:24 pm

Flare wrote:Part of the issue has to do with how the ethic groups generally stick to themselves and transform the area they live in into 'thier' area (ie a Pakistani region, or a Indian region...) and other group members not of that group are not particularily encourged to remain, and non member dont want to stay in 'that' area.


Different cultures not mixing with each other is a widespread effect, but one that isn't restricted to ethnic groups. For example, "cool kids" don't mix with "nerds"; mods don't mix with rockers; roadies don't mix with mountain bikers; teenagers don't mix with OAPs.

Of course, I'm generalising there; there are exceptions, and often these groups do have some overlap, but you get my point. If I suggested that the solution to mods not mixing with rockers was to ban rock music and send rockers elsewhere, you'd think it ridiculous. Dealing with different groups in our neighbourhoods is only an extension of the same thing, as far as I can see.

One question one might ask is why do we congregate in cultural or ethnic groups? Some of it is just to mix with people like ourselves; the same reason why teenagers might hang out with other teenagers rather than old people. But another aspect, I think, is that it's a reaction to the actions of others. If you, as an Asian (or white person) move into a predominately white area (or Asian area), and are made to feel unwelcome, it's quite likely that you'll choose to live somewhere else instead; amongst other Asians (or other whites), where you feel safer, more comfortable and more accepted. So, while we can't do much about our natural tribalism, and wanting to be around others like ourselves, we can try to mitigate that by being welcoming and tolerant.

And if one area of town becomes "Chinatown", or "Little Tokyo" or something else, so what? You probably don't have to go there anyway. I agree, some people who already live there might feel they want to move out, but I think that's up to them. Instead, they could try to integrate themselves with the culture that's springing up around them; or at least be tolerant of it. Unless it's bringing really drastic changes to one's day-to-day life, I think that should be perfectly possible. Communities change, and I don't really feel concerned by it. The way we live today is very different from 100 years ago, let alone 200 or 300. In 100 years time, things might be very different in the UK. But I'll be long dead. =)
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Flare on Fri May 14, 2010 6:17 pm

Woah woah, so what ?

Why cant those moving in integrate with the country they are moving into, being citizens of... instead of expecting the country to adapt to them being [insert country of origin]?
What happens if the new 'little india' is located where you grew up, oh tough pal...bring a stab proof vest when you go see the sights...except theres a soddin mosque where you used to play... and you have these Indians/Pakistanis/whatever telling you to get out of THIER area.

I have no issues with any race, creed, religion, gender, sexuality, colour or nationality moving in next door... I do have an issue when they move in and tell me to piss off so thier cousin or aunt can move in.

... instead of making a Pakistani or Indian area , they should of tried to be British... it is after all Britian.

Can you imagine this happening in France ? Doubt very much those lot will shrug thier shoulders and say "C'est la vieve" (yeah its probably spelled wrong, I never did french in South Africa (was taught Sotho instead :P))... like hell they would, the French are proud of thier identity... us British dont give a toss anymore.

... in retrospect we probably deserve to be buried under all the other cultures, and lose out identity as we dont care enough to fight for it.
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Rico on Fri May 14, 2010 7:17 pm

Flare wrote:What happens if the new 'little india' is located where you grew up, oh tough pal...bring a stab proof vest when you go see the sights...except theres a soddin mosque where you used to play...


I've no attachment to where I grew up beyond rose-tinted nostalgia. I've long since moved away and moved on. So I really don't care what's there now. Besides, the predominant religion in India in Hinduism (80%), so it's far more likely to be a Hindu temple than a mosque. :Oo:

I don't know why you think I'd need a stab-proof vest to visit an Indian area any more than I might need one to visit some predominantly white areas. Maybe you think white people are all law-abiding saints. News flash: they ain't.
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby EWJ on Fri May 14, 2010 7:30 pm

TBh Flare that statement has to be one of the most small minded racist things I've read in quite a while...Its like saying back in the 80's..'Any Irish area you'd get blown up in...' Stop reading crap and open your eyes..We are all human beings and deserve to be treated as such.

Can you imagine this happening in France ? Doubt very much those lot will shrug thier shoulders and say "C'est la vieve" (yeah its probably spelled wrong, I never did french in South Africa (was taught Sotho instead :P))... like hell they would, the French are proud of thier identity... us British dont give a toss anymore.


erm...what?...

'The French called them Les cités. The ‘ghettos’ are specially built for excluded and disfranchised migrants from France’s former North African colonies - mostly Arabs and Muslims - and other parts of the world. Clustered on the peripheries of France’s big cities, Les cités proved to be laboratories for dissent and resistance against oppression. The children of the immigrants who built France after World War II are being pushed further outside the French society.

It is important to emphasise that the French youth who are protesting against police violence and the policy of the French political establishment, are French citizens. They were born into first and second generation immigrants communities from France’s former colonies. They are not motivated by religion, and the protest has nothing to do with Islam and Western cliché of “Islamic fundamentalism”. It is a protest against oppression and racism. This is the only way the youth can express their anger and frustration at French political establishment which deny immigrants to be integrated in their diversity. Successive French governments failed to come up with a faire and successful integration policy. '
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Wizav on Fri May 14, 2010 7:52 pm

I've no attachment to where I grew up beyond rose-tinted nostalgia


I think that's a shame :(


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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Rico on Fri May 14, 2010 8:16 pm

Wizav wrote:
I've no attachment to where I grew up beyond rose-tinted nostalgia


I think that's a shame :(


By "no attachment", I mean I don't need to go back there and experience those places as they were at the time in order to enjoy my memories.

I have memories, sure, but my memories stay the same even if the area has changed. For example, there are housing estates on fields I grew up playing in. An amusement park I used to go to has long since closed down. The friends I had have grown up and moved away. Even the streets themselves have changed, with roundabouts replacing junctions all over the place.

Nothing to do with immigration, race, muslims, or anything like that. Just change. And I don't really care if the person living in the house I lived in when I was 11 is white, black, Asian, Christian, muslim, pagan, gay, straight, short, tall, male, female or whatever the hell they are. It was a house I lived in, and area I occupied in my past; and I've moved on.

I might feel different if I'd lived in a given area for 40 years, and seen it change around me. But I doubt it. I think I'd be pragmatic, and accept that things change, just as I do now.
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Wizav on Fri May 14, 2010 9:38 pm

Is saying i hate islam racist?


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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Flawless on Fri May 14, 2010 9:41 pm

Personally I would say no, but the word racism is thrown around so much these days, I wouldn't consider me saying I hate Christianity racist (I don't for the record). Wikipedia sums it up for me personally.

Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.


but, to the UN (according to wikipedia)


According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination.
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Rico on Fri May 14, 2010 9:48 pm

Wizav wrote:Is saying i hate islam racist?


No, since Islam is a religion, not a race. You'd probably be on more dodgy ground with "I hate muslims" (it's still not strictly prejudice on racial or ethnic ground, but many people would infer racial motives).
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Flare on Fri May 14, 2010 9:49 pm

I cant tell if you guys are deliberatley trolling me for a reaction or what....

How is it racist to want people who become british citizens, to be more british ... and not merely extend the country of thier origin ?

Yes, like the white extremists you get disenfranchised ethnic youths that will attack whites in 'thier area', additionally ethnic groups do stick to 'thier own' and discourage dealings with whites... as you said they are human, and not immune to being racists themselves.

Yes they are human, I am not arguing against it or even them living here... I am just against them carving out a little portion of the town/city/country and living as if they are seperate.

Do you deny that areas of the UK are dominated by groups from other countries, and that they stick to thier own and discourage other groups from moving in ?
Do you deny that these groups also bring in more of thier group all the time, and actively increase the size of thier community ?
Do you deny that the majority of these groups have very little intrest or show very little allegiance to thier new country ?

Though to be honest , I can sort of understand it... after all as a group they have each other as support, if they tried to move into areas as individual families they would most likely face a cold reception by the locals... hell they will be targeted by racists.
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Rico on Fri May 14, 2010 10:31 pm

*shrug*

I don't see it as any different from Brits living in communities in Spain, for example. There are about 750,000 Brits living in Spain (2006 figures). Go to some parts of Spain, and you'll find English style pubs, fish & chip shops, English-speaking garages, shopkeepers, etc. etc. Whenever a group of people move and settle elsewhere, they take their culture with them, and many form communities that are not necessarily well-integrated into the existing ones.

I do agree that people who want to live in the UK should learn to speak English, and I can understand why some people are resentful of what they see as loss of national identity, or being told they shouldn't do something they've done for 40 years because it might offend other cultures. But at the same time, I think we need to accept increasing cultural diversity, and try to accommodate it. It's a difficult thing to pull off though. I'm pleased that my own children are learning about various cultures. They still do nativity plays at school, but also learn about Diwali, or celebrate Chinese New Year; and they learn that some people pray when they feel like it, or may say grace before a meal, while other people pray at specific times each day. But just because they're different, doesn't mean either one way is better than the other.

Then when they get home, I teach them that all religion is a crock of shit. :D
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Haze on Sat May 15, 2010 4:40 am

Wizav wrote:
i think thats very decent of us to do such a thing, im proud to be part of such a gracious nation.


Make hundreds of your fellow brits redundant that have been working there for years then hire hundreds of polish people that cant even speak english, Pay them minimum wage and hire a translater.

OHHHH the graciousness its overwhelming :cheers:


then realise its not about race, its about business...

stop banging on about your mums tesco position, you dont even work there...


shut it...


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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Wizav on Sat May 15, 2010 1:25 pm

then realise its not about race, its about business...

stop banging on about your mums tesco position, you dont even work there...


shut it...


there's loads of unemployed british people that could be working there that have warehouse experience and speak perfect english. If you dont think thats a problem then your a cock tbh.

Hiring cheap labour from poor countries and putting your own countrymen out of work isnt business its exploitation and it should be illegal in my opinion.

The fact that they dont pay the foreign workers the same wage is evidence of that exploitation aswell. There's a big loop hole in the system and its called agencies. Foreign workers get paid less for doing the exact same hours and job as someone else, It's almost slavery.

And it doesnt help the country any as most of the money foreigners earn gets sent back home where it is then fed into that country's economy not ours. Not to mention once a foreign worker from the EU has left there job in UK they can continue to claim benefits from our economy while they search for a job in there home country. Gotta love the EU <3


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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Rico on Sat May 15, 2010 1:36 pm

If they've been paying into our welfare system, then it's right they should be able to claim from it.
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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Wizav on Sat May 15, 2010 2:27 pm

If they've been paying into our welfare system, then it's right they should be able to claim from it.


That is fair but you cant just claim benefits because you have payed tax and dont have a job. You have to be job hunting and providing evidence that you have been doing exactly that. I just dont see how the goverment can check up on people all over europe. They might not even be looking for work.

Also does there benefit automatically stop once it equals the tax they have paid or does it continue untill they are back in work?

I just think there's far too many loop holes in the EU that can be abused and people from all over europe know that England is the easiest target and i think thats why people will travel through several EU countries to get to england without stopping on the way. I mean lets be honest there not coming here for the warm climate and nice food. They come here because our goverment will put them in £10,000 per month mansions in london and give them benefits.


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Re: BNP Fail

Postby Rico on Sat May 15, 2010 2:42 pm

Wizav wrote:our goverment will put them in £10,000 per month mansions in london and give them benefits.


Bloody Tories. :evil:
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