China - Miscarriage of Justice

This forum is for posting meaningful and serious ideas and questions. Can be about interests, observations or serious matters of the world. If it doesn't fit that category, don't post here! Serious posts only.

China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby sarie on Mon May 10, 2010 9:26 am

"A Chinese man who spent almost 10 years in jail for murder has been freed after his supposed victim was found alive.
Zhao Zuohai had a fight with his neighbour, who then disappeared, and was charged when a headless, decomposed body was found 18 months later.
Mr Zhao's conviction for murder was reportedly based mainly on a confession.
His brother said police had forced him to drink chilli-tainted water and set off fireworks above his head in order to make him confess.
Mr Zhao was initially sentenced to death for the crime, but the sentenced was commuted to 29 years in prison.
While he was in jail, his wife remarried and several of his children were adopted."


Full story here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8671577.stm

This story is just awful. And also a good example of why the death sentence has been called into question so many times. Had the death sentence stuck, an innocent man would have been executed.
Despite this though, he still basically lost his life by being imprisoned for 10 years based on little or no evidence and an incorrectly identified corpse.


sarie
UKCS Life Sponsor
 
Player: Sarie
STEAM_0:1:10848049
 
Posts: 3874
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:56 pm
Location: Derby

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Flare on Mon May 10, 2010 1:05 pm

Theres a lot of examples on how the UK's leniancy in dealing with criminals and concern about thier rights that the Chinese goverment could pull out to show how our system doesnt work, where a criminal gets let loose and creates more victims.

How do you balance the death of 1 innocent man falsely accused and tried, with the death of innocents by the hands of criminals given a leniant punishment simply because our system cannot cope with the influx of criminals.

I was told in Singapore one could leave a stuffed wallet out in the open, and it wouldnt be touched simply because the fear of getting caught stealing overcomes the greed... additionally stiff penalties for littering have resulted in clean streets, again fear of the law makes people do the right thing.
Look at the UK, it would seem to many that the law is more on the criminals side protecting thier rights than the actual victims (hell we have all heard horror stories of how the victim gets punished or sued, while the perpetrator gets off lightly).

I do believe we need a harsher system, and yes... the death penalty for extreme cases, criminals do not get rehabilitated by simply confining them to ... centres, they merely plan how to do it properly when they get out.
Consider the current situation, a bank robber would face about 5 years in the can at most unless he goes postal and slaughters people... then its 20 - 25 at most, if the robber gets away hes set up for life if he fails he gets a few years board and lodging and access to educate himself.
Criminal records for the most part are not allowed to be a basis for not hiring, in fact theres schemes to promote hiring of ex cons subsidised by the goverment.

There is very little to fear in the criminal system, I say the legal system has more teeth and I would be more afraid of being sued than convicted.
Sometimes keeping an eye on your stats is not a good thing :P

Some things are painfully obvious, others must be made obvious... painfully
User avatar
Flare
UKCS Life Sponsor
 
Player: Flare
STEAM_0:0:690038
 
Posts: 1848
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: S.Wales (UK)

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby WAR on Mon May 10, 2010 1:27 pm

What Flare said tbh, although China normally do have some injustices and corruption in their law, in some ways it's better than ours, that's why there's so much anti-social behavior, crime etc. going on, because they are simply not scared of the punishments, some people that I have spoken to in Barnsley have been to jail, albeit not for long, they have all said that in some cases it's better to be in jail because of some of the opportunities that can be opened to you as Flare said.

When people become actually scared of committing a crime in the UK, the better it is, people won't be willing to attempt not paying for insurance, stealing a car, drugs, robbery etc. because the punishment for the crime would be too fierce.

When someone goes to jail or gets arrested for a crime, even murder for example, their human rights etc. are still in order and are treated like any normal person, but, they just murdered someone and denied their will to live, why should they be treated in a caring manner?
TC- you sir, are one pain in the ass!
Imp- you've been offline for a while and you dont have a life. i am confused.
Kan- War is annoying to play against I will agree, but he isn't cheating.


:D

My Youtube account with TF2 videos of epic and win
User avatar
WAR
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: warhuryeah.gg
STEAM_0:1:18284023
 
Posts: 3560
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:54 am

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Xhiea on Mon May 10, 2010 1:43 pm

there is no justification for the death of an innocent man at the hands of the government.
Image

Need help with signature text?

>>watch my video tutorial for help!<<
User avatar
Xhiea
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Xhiea is crap at css
STEAM_0:0:5403780
 
Posts: 8957
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:48 pm
Location: York, North Yorkshire



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Wizav on Mon May 10, 2010 3:31 pm

The legal system is like a big fishing net with holes that allow innocent people to swim free, But those holes also allow alot of criminals to swim free too.

And its impossible to build a net that only allows innocent people to go free so you either use a net that protects the innocent but also let's some criminals go or use a net that catches them all with the side affect of catching a few innocents.

It's pretty obvious which net reduces crime the most but its difficult to know which net hurts the innocent more in the long run.

Looking at the reoffend rates for the UK and how many people get let off i think its safe to say less innocent people will get hurt in the long run


Wizav
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Wizav
STEAM_1:3:666666
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:51 pm

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby BenJy! on Mon May 10, 2010 4:35 pm

We need more harsher laws to punish people in this country; Prison should be use to reform prisoners into decent minded people, not come out the same way they went in.
Image
User avatar
BenJy!
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: GGGhost!
STEAM_0:1:10348274
 
Posts: 7730
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:03 pm
Location: In Northern Darkness



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Gh0st.IRE on Mon May 10, 2010 5:12 pm

You can introduce the death penalty - but with it comes ht epossability that an innocent wo/man could be executed for a crime they did not commit. That then moves onto weather or not "The needs of the many.." should be taken into concideration.

In my own opinion you can not have the right to kill someone simply because you were appointed to a human-created position of "power" - It may give you a higher pay rise but it does not give you the right to take a life - That being said, Some crimes that are commited seem to require the death penalty for what they've done but I honestly can't say I would want that to happen.

Its an interesting topic
Ex-TF2 Admin. Forum Moderator. Add me on Steam or PM me here!
Image
Heresy MMO Guild Member.
User avatar
Gh0st.IRE
Moderator
 
Player: Rear Naked Bugs
STEAM_0:0:12137987
 
Posts: 4635
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:09 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby OnyX on Mon May 10, 2010 5:30 pm

Flare has nicely summed up what i wanted to say :-

Flare wrote:How do you balance the death of 1 innocent man falsely accused and tried, with the death of innocents by the hands of criminals given a leniant punishment simply because our system cannot cope with the influx of criminals.


I don't think we can judge China's justice system when ours is pretty much non-existant - theres a reason why our prisons are so overcrowded.....

miscarriage of justice? yes. only happens in China? no.


OnyX
Home Member
 
Player: Mr.Onion.Head^
STEAM_0:1:20605072
 
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:50 pm



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Xhiea on Mon May 10, 2010 8:00 pm

Ok lets put it this way, what if the innocent person being accused of murder was you? What if it was your son? what if it was your wife? You can't justify the death of innocent people in any way. you can say its a necessary sacrifice to reduce crime, but we don't live in an era of human sacrifice. If I was being put to death for a crime i didn't commit, i definitely wouldn't think "oh its ok because my death means less crime"
Image

Need help with signature text?

>>watch my video tutorial for help!<<
User avatar
Xhiea
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Xhiea is crap at css
STEAM_0:0:5403780
 
Posts: 8957
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:48 pm
Location: York, North Yorkshire



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Wizav on Mon May 10, 2010 8:41 pm

Ok lets put it this way, what if the innocent person being accused of murder was you? What if it was your son? what if it was your wife? You can't justify the death of innocent people in any way. you can say its a necessary sacrifice to reduce crime, but we don't live in an era of human sacrifice. If I was being put to death for a crime i didn't commit, i definitely wouldn't think "oh its ok because my death means less crime"


It's impossible to justify, because its just wrong but its still the lesser of two evils in some cases and benefits man kind on a whole. It sucks when its you or your family but thats just life.

Human rights cause alot of problems tbh, Ive said it before and i just dont understand why the legal system doesnt use stricter methods to find the guilty party. Hypnosis , Lie detectors , Interrogation with non-lethal torture etc

The army do it and nobody gets killed during the process and it helps them get the job done.


Wizav
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Wizav
STEAM_1:3:666666
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:51 pm

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Xhiea on Mon May 10, 2010 8:58 pm

Right, because forcing a confession works so well, as seen in this case.

Seriously wizav i think your view come straight out of the dark ages.
Image

Need help with signature text?

>>watch my video tutorial for help!<<
User avatar
Xhiea
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Xhiea is crap at css
STEAM_0:0:5403780
 
Posts: 8957
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:48 pm
Location: York, North Yorkshire



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Logic3 on Mon May 10, 2010 9:07 pm

Why not only use the death penalty when the evidence is solid concrete and there's no possible "error" ?
Image --- Click to add me on Steam Friends!

Image
User avatar
Logic3
UKCS Life Sponsor
 
Player: Logic ☂- James
STEAM_0:1:13240398
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Reading, Berkshire, United Kingdom



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Xhiea on Mon May 10, 2010 9:11 pm

Because that is impossible, there is always a way that something can fail. People can be framed using dna samples etc. Its almost impossible to get 100% clear cut solid evidence. 99%, yeah, but there is still that chance that something could be wrong and an innocent person would die.
Image

Need help with signature text?

>>watch my video tutorial for help!<<
User avatar
Xhiea
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Xhiea is crap at css
STEAM_0:0:5403780
 
Posts: 8957
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:48 pm
Location: York, North Yorkshire



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby OnyX on Mon May 10, 2010 11:21 pm

Xhiea wrote:Ok lets put it this way, what if the innocent person being accused of murder was you? What if it was your son? what if it was your wife? You can't justify the death of innocent people in any way. you can say its a necessary sacrifice to reduce crime, but we don't live in an era of human sacrifice. If I was being put to death for a crime i didn't commit, i definitely wouldn't think "oh its ok because my death means less crime"


well what about - what if the criminal's next victim was you? your son? or your wife? would you still be so supportive of our lenient system? would you think "shit, he just murdered/raped my wife, but thats ok, he deserves a 2nd chance after he's released from prison". they dont give the death penalty to people who they judge to be innocent so im not sure where this human sacrifice comes in. its only to "guilty" people although i will not disagree that they can make mistakes.

but you're right, we cant justify the death of innocent people but you cannot deny the positives of the death penalty. as others have said - it was just tough luck for the guy in the above article. all i said before was i don't think we should criticise another country's system when ours is pretty poor itself - improve yourself before you try to improve others.


OnyX
Home Member
 
Player: Mr.Onion.Head^
STEAM_0:1:20605072
 
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:50 pm



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby sarie on Tue May 11, 2010 9:15 am

Just to clarify, my original post wasn't intended to point fingers at China, or to support or villify the death penalty.. simply to open up debate about the criminal justice system and the death penalty ;)

The death penalty is something little discussed, as are the harsher punishments within the criminial justice system, as exercised in some countries. For example in some Arabic countries, if you are caught stealing, your hand is cut off. This has seen theft drop by nearly 90%.
Flare gave a great example of a similar situation in Singapore.
Flare wrote:I was told in Singapore one could leave a stuffed wallet out in the open, and it wouldnt be touched simply because the fear of getting caught stealing overcomes the greed... additionally stiff penalties for littering have resulted in clean streets, again fear of the law makes people do the right thing.

There is very little to fear in the criminal system, I say the legal system has more teeth and I would be more afraid of being sued than convicted.

--------------------

There are also strong arguments against our current jail system here in the UK suggesting that the prisoners are too well catered for, with some prisoners describing jail as "like being on holiday".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1146323/Jail-just-like-holiday-Killer-boasts-Facebook-prison-cell.html

Should prisoners be entitled to rights? Or should all but the very basic of rights be stripped away when they are imprisoned?

What about a return to the hard labour prisoners used to endure? A deterrent in itself without the death penalty.

Some more fuel for the fire ;)


sarie
UKCS Life Sponsor
 
Player: Sarie
STEAM_0:1:10848049
 
Posts: 3874
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:56 pm
Location: Derby

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby G3!ST on Tue May 11, 2010 9:36 am

Dunno bout death penalty, but definitely harsher punishment and actually making jail a shite place to be would be great. Feed them, blah blah, but don't pamper them. Take away tv etc, i mean why the hell are these people allowed internet?! So many people have no access to these luxuries, criminals are the least worthy of them.
User avatar
G3!ST
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Incredibru
STEAM_0:0:6011571
 
Posts: 3617
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: England



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Xhiea on Tue May 11, 2010 10:07 am

sorry sarie, but any report by 'DAILY MAIL REPORTER' should be completely dismissed as pure BS imo.
Image

Need help with signature text?

>>watch my video tutorial for help!<<
User avatar
Xhiea
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Xhiea is crap at css
STEAM_0:0:5403780
 
Posts: 8957
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:48 pm
Location: York, North Yorkshire



Image

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby sarie on Tue May 11, 2010 11:16 am

Xhiea wrote:sorry sarie, but any report by 'DAILY MAIL REPORTER' should be completely dismissed as pure BS imo.


It's common knowledge that the prison system provides TVs, free education and internet access to prisoners. It was the first article I found when I did a search in google... one of about 500. Simply from googling "Prison like holiday".

So if you take such exception to the source then google the information yourself and stop picking at areas in my post for the sake of it.


sarie
UKCS Life Sponsor
 
Player: Sarie
STEAM_0:1:10848049
 
Posts: 3874
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:56 pm
Location: Derby

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Wizav on Tue May 11, 2010 11:53 am

My friend did a few months in prison he was given pocket money, could visit prison shop and buy chocolate , crisps and all kinds of luxuries. At break they had a playstation with fifa and a few other games. Small tv and radio in his cell and during the day he spent most of his time in lessons learning about stuff and having a laugh with the mates he had made. And it wasnt for youths, my mate is 21 he was in an adult prison.

Prison is prison the only difference between inmates should be the time they are serving. You shouldnt get a tv and radio just because your crime was less serious than the guy on block B thats retarded. Crime is crime you need punishment , not a slap on the wrist. Even my mate thought it was a joke


Wizav
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: Wizav
STEAM_1:3:666666
 
Posts: 2222
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:51 pm

Re: China - Miscarriage of Justice

Postby Haze on Tue May 11, 2010 12:01 pm

not all prisons are fun...


User avatar
Haze
Old Timer
 
Player: Haze
STEAM_0:0:781187
 
Posts: 4367
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:23 am
Location: London

Next

Return to Thinkers Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests