Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

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Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Mox -05 on Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:31 pm

1. They give him a socialist lawyer from the same political party as the kids he killed, and claim he asked for that lawyer (no way for us to check on that, ever).
2. Same lawyer tries to plead insanity (which would get his client locked up forever), despite his client's wishes, and badmouthes his client in front of the international press: "He is insane!"
3. Breivik gets put into solitary, with no outside access whatsoever besides his lawyer, no newspapers/tv, he has no clue that he is being played
4. Trial is delayed for an entire year and the public is excluded (not even a tv camera). Maybe they are afraid that Breivik will bring up the issue of how he was assigned his lawyer?

This is how a "fair trial" in Norway looks like, folks.

This is what "fair trials" for political dissidents used to look like in Sovjet Russia.

Even the socialist terrorists in the 70s got fair trials. But for the socialist ruling class in Norway, laws are only words on paper, to be bent when it fits the will of the ruling party.


Now, I know most of you think of Anders Behring Breivik as a brutal murderer who should be killed in sight. Sadly, Im not one of those fellows - Im too heartless for that.
That aside, I think the points above should spark up some discussion about the politics of the world these days. I admit it that the quote is taken from a *chan site - That should not affect the conversations here.

In my opinion, this man deserves a fair trial. No matter what he has done.
Norwegian judge, lawyer and everything. That smells like a biased court to me.

Arguments for and against go under this post :3
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Aceo on Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:33 pm

Have you got any sources for any of the facts given?


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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Enigma on Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:57 pm

Aceo wrote:Have you got any sources for any of the facts given?

Just read the news?
I would post my opinion on this matter but I would be tagged as an Islamophobic in better case or even as a Nazi in worse case.
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby G3!ST on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:28 am

'this man deserves a fair trial' - :roll: ........................................................................................................................................
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Deez.Nuts on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:37 am

A fair trial to burden to the taxpayer some more eh? Nice.

Lock him up in general population and see how long he lasts.
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby raptor2009 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:08 am

Fair? as in the fairness he deal't his victims and their family's?, personally he deserves everything he gets, and then some. As a father myself i cant even contemplate what those poor kid's went through and what their family's are going through now.
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Mox -05 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:15 pm

I completely understand people's views on this, even though most of them differ from mine.
Im sure he will be 'getting everything he deserves' but if it goes over the top, I'll be even more disappointed at the politics these days. Someone's gotta cut the revenge/avenge/etc loop after all.

One thing to add to the first post;
The judge stopped Anders from talking when Anders was telling his view of things. Violates the rights of the man and contempts the court (grammar, spelling?).

These are just my opinions, Im not trying to start a flame-war or anything, just wanted to share my viewpoints and hear yours.
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Unspecified on Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:32 pm

I dont know too much about the choice of lawyer or how that happened, so i can really comment on those specifics based purely on a chan quote from a somewhat biased sounding poster.

He should have a fair trial. Not because 'he deserves it' or not, but because that's what you do in a sensible democracy - follow the rule of law and due process. If you start saying 'this person doesn't deserve a proper trial because he did X' then you set yourself on a very slippery slope indeed.

If somebody has done something horrific, as in this case, then the trial should bear that out and they will be punished accordingly. The trial shouldn't be too long as he has admitted doing it so there is no need to prove who did what with forensics etc. I imagine most of it will be spent considering if he is insane (whether or not anybody who takes another's life is insane by definition is another matter) or not and what that means to his sentence.

Keeping pre trial hearings etc private does seem sensible to me, as at some point they have got to try and find a none prejudice jury to hear the case.

I'm not sure about the references to stopping him giving his 'story' or reasons for what he did - I'm sure he will have the opportunity to tell that to the court in the trial if he so wishes. I'm not a lawyer but i don't think its necessarily usual practice to let the defendant start giving their 'defence' or explanations at a pre trial hearing - those things are normally to establish if there is grounds for a trial, grounds for detention (which they are as he has admitted doing it), bail matters, to schedule a trial to actually hear the evidence etc.

(I've tried to write this post from a rational point of view for clarity - I'm in no way saying what he did was anything less than absolutely and utterly despicable, but that doesnt change my points)
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Wombat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:33 pm

I agree with Unspec. Regardless of what he did, he should deserve a fair trial. In that trial, he will get the punishment that he deserves. I can understand he emotions of people who have suffered directly or indirectly by this disaster, but if we do not master our emotions, we lower ourselves to the same level...

Mox wrote:Norwegian judge, lawyer and everything. That smells like a biased court to me.

Why??? Should he be trialed by an Argentinian judge perhaps? or one from Congo?

1. This crime happened in Norway, so he should be tried according to Norwegian law right? I can think of no reason the judge should be not norwegian...
2. The defence lawyer is not part of the court. He is there to defend his client. I can nothing but agree with him on the objective statement he made that looking at the facts, his client appears to be insane. To be honest, that might be his best defence strategy as well...
3. As Unspec said, Breivik being cut short when he wanted to speak is not strange. There is a time and a place for that in a court case, he is not allowed to just speak his mind whenever he wants to, as much people seem to think. This is no limitation to freedom of speech whatsoever, he will get his chance. Whether or not that will be in public is another thing. Freedom to speak at your own trial does not mean freedom to get television time when you want it...

In general, the court system has nothing to do with the government. They are seperated by the principles of the Trias Politia, as in almost all democratic states. If you do not believe or have faith in those principles, then you should try to change them (moving along to commenting on Breiviks actions...).
It is fine if you do not agree with a current system, government or set of laws existing in your country. It is however not fine if you start breaking those laws to demonstrate you don't agree. If you want change, make it happen from the inside. Go into politics, start a movement, a revolution for all I care. If you however place yourself above the law and think you need to break the system in order to change it, you're a complete moron, in my humble personal opinion. By the way, for those interested in this subject, I recommend reading Crime and Punishment by Dostoyevski.

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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Mox -05 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:07 pm

Unspecified wrote:I dont know too much about the choice of lawyer or how that happened, so i can really comment on those specifics based purely on a chan quote from a somewhat biased sounding poster.

The news in Finland got that covered. Of course there's no trusting the media 100% blindly. Anyway, should've added that on the first post.

Unspecified wrote:He should have a fair trial. Not because 'he deserves it' or not, but because that's what you do in a sensible democracy - follow the rule of law and due process. If you start saying 'this person doesn't deserve a proper trial because he did X' then you set yourself on a very slippery slope indeed.

I'm not sure about the references to stopping him giving his 'story' or reasons for what he did - I'm sure he will have the opportunity to tell that to the court in the trial if he so wishes.

[/quote]
If I understood right, Anders was asked to tell his point of view in the pre-trial, where the judge stopped him after he quoted his manifest. Again, my arguments are based solely on the media here.

Wombat wrote:I agree with Unspec. Regardless of what he did, he should deserve a fair trial. In that trial, he will get the punishment that he deserves. I can understand he emotions of people who have suffered directly or indirectly by this disaster, but if we do not master our emotions, we lower ourselves to the same level...

Mox wrote:Norwegian judge, lawyer and everything. That smells like a biased court to me.

Why??? Should he be trialed by an Argentinian judge perhaps? or one from Congo?

1. This crime happened in Norway, so he should be tried according to Norwegian law right? I can think of no reason the judge should be not norwegian...

"if we do not master our emotions, we lower ourselves to the same level..."
Sorry for taking it out of context, but Im kind of sceptical about the Norwegian court + emotions part, especially at this early stage of the aftermath that's going on. That's why I think of it as biased. Im not saying the judge and the whole court should be summed up from random people from all around the world.

Wombat wrote:2. The defence lawyer is not part of the court. He is there to defend his client. I can nothing but agree with him on the objective statement he made that looking at the facts, his client appears to be insane. To be honest, that might be his best defence strategy as well...

Of course psychopaths can live in the middle of us in everyday life, but 9 years of careful planning?
Getting a police uniform? Weapons?
I dont know any psychopaths myself, only seen them in the movies, but according to that^, he sounds like an intelligent fellow with the worst ways of expressing himself.

Not attacking your views, dont hit me with a brick D:
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Wombat on Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:38 pm

heh, I never said I think he's insane. I only said it might be his best defence strategy to say he is, so job well done by the lawyer, imho. He appears legally sane indeed but i'm no judge. Morally, he's as insane as they come, if you ask me.

I think he is a complete moron, unfortunately completely corrupted by some bizarre ideas an opinions. I do believe however that incidents like these are always an expression of society as a whole and a result of ideas and feelings bubbling under the surface of today's world population.

So, in that sole respect I agree with Breivik. "There is something wrong with society". But, what's wrong has nothing to do with muslims or anything related to race or origin, what is wrong is the growing hatred and xenophobia amongst people and Breivik is unfortunately the inevitable embodyment of those feelings.

Love of one's neighbour and mutual understanding is rapidly declining in our further individualising society. Unfortunately, the medium we are using to discuss this (the internet) is attributing greatly to that problem if you ask me. The world is at a distance. People don't go out of their houses anymore as anything is to be found on-line. Food, entertainment, friendship. So, we don't flirt with the checkout girl at the supermarket anymore, we don't ask for directions on the street because we have an Iphone and we don't play hide and seek outside because we have an Xbox. This all attributes to less social skills, less mutual understanding. And unfortunately, with not understanding comes fear and with fear comes hatred...

(i'm sorry for maybe getting a little carried away and sounding so dramatic and apocaliptic, but the I do mean what I write. Words I think need to be said, especially in a gamers community... :)).

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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby Mox -05 on Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:44 pm

Well said and the last few lines are exactly my thoughts.
Something's fishy about this society and I miss the golden days of going out on a sunny day to kick some football with friends. Long gone are the days of -05 and so on... :P

That said, I think we should go play some football.
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby MotsMan on Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:34 pm

I have no issue with the media and public not being allowed into the trials. Why should he be allowed to spread his justification of the killings to the world. There is NO justification for what he did.

I also would like to make a point about the judge being Norwegian. How can any judge from any country not be biased against the defendant in this case. The evidence against him is phenomanol. What he did was a terrible crime and he deserves no less than life in jail.
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Re: Norway murderer trial - interesting facts...

Postby MakeNine on Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:43 pm

MotsMan wrote:Why should he be allowed to spread his justification of the killings to the world. There is NO justification for what he did.


If there is none how can he spread it?

Wombat wrote:Love of one's neighbour and mutual understanding is rapidly declining in our further individualising society. Unfortunately, the medium we are using to discuss this (the internet) is attributing greatly to that problem if you ask me. The world is at a distance. People don't go out of their houses anymore as anything is to be found on-line. Food, entertainment, friendship. So, we don't flirt with the checkout girl at the supermarket anymore, we don't ask for directions on the street because we have an Iphone and we don't play hide and seek outside because we have an Xbox. This all attributes to less social skills, less mutual understanding. And unfortunately, with not understanding comes fear and with fear comes hatred...


I agree completely with you.

Personally I find it hard to believe that he is a sane person, when you read some of his manifesto (he inserts smileys when talking about explosives) or his smiling face as he is being transported in a police van.


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