Bullies

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Bullies

Postby Snowbat on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:40 am

I was having this discussion earlier today and I'm curious to hear opinions.
So a kid at school is being bullied. Every day, over and over again. He's sick and tired of it and decides to take up some martial arts class. One day, the bully goes a bridge too far and the angry target stands up and fights with the bully. He ends up dealing some punishment to the bully but both are sent to the principal's office.
Both get punished because violence is never good. Sometimes, the bullied kid will even get a worse punishment because he knows martial arts and "abused it".

Now I know all this stuff about "violence doesn't solve violence" and such... but I seriously think the kid has the right to defend himself. If the bully really pushes it, then he just got it coming.
I mean, if you want to bully people, you have to keep in mind that there is a chance you'll get beaten up because your target was not such an easy target after all. That's the risk to take when you do despicable things like bullying.

I always say avoiding a fight is the best solution. And if you can reason with the bully and make him understand it's really bothering you and you can make him stop "peacefully" that's great! But lets be realistic... how often does that actually work? Sometimes it's just best to fight fire with fire.

Do note: I'm talking about being bullied. Not talking about when you get assaulted on the streets. Obviously, if someone points a gun at you and demands your wallet, for the love of God don't be a hero and give your wallet. It's always better to avoid a fight. But in case of bullying, sometimes I think the bully needs to be taught a lesson.

Your opinions?
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Re: Bullies

Postby Cotillion on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:47 am

When a person takes up lessons on matrial arts to defend against a bully, he is learning the martial arts for the wrong reason. and that would make the self defence an act of violence indeed. But i think there is a fine line between violence and awnsering being bullied with selfdefence. I don't see self defence as a act of violence if it is only that, self defence. When you want to revenge your self then it becomes an act of violence. If you start to bully the bully, it becomes an act of violence. imo.
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Re: Bullies

Postby heuji on Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:42 pm

i personally don't think taking up martial arts to defend himself is wrong. it is about how the fight happened and developed/ended. was the bully the first to start the violence? or, as Cotillion suggested, was the bullied the aggressor? its clear which one of these is the wrong approach.
you can also count yourself, and others, part of the problem. if it was reported before hand that there was a problem by the victim AND he had witnesses supporting his claims the school has to act. a lot of the time it is just one victim though, and, he/she has no support or witnesses to their claims. the school/teachers then tread a thin line between if the claims are genuine or not. there's also the scenario where the victim doesn't want to report the problem because he/she fears things will just get worse if they do (not an unlikely scenario). the more support he/she has with claims of bullying initially, the more power the school has to act on it. a lot of the time the bully 'feeds' on the laughter and support of others too. if being ignored, when doing these things, the 'enjoyment' is reduced. bullys are usually 'very needy' people.
i feel for the poor guy being bullied in your post. there was no one in my class(es) at school constantly picked on. not to say bullying didn't happen, everyone had their day, just it wasn't really put up with or supported for very long. i wouldn't even say we were a friendly bunch, just, there was no dedicated target. i could just imagine how miserable it must be for someone.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Cotillion on Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:57 pm

I'm not saying the bullied is the aggressor. i'm only saying that imo if the bullied toke up martial arts he does it for the wrong reasons and if he then uses it to retaliate the bully it would become an act of violence instead of self defense. If you are trained in martial arts and fight with your hands that can be seen as picking up a weapon. If you only use it as selfdefense without inflicting further pain/damage on the bully, just to deflect the agressor, then it is just that, self defense.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Binerexis on Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:20 pm

This is always a very difficult thing to identify the 'right' cause of action. It can also become a horrible mess of "Well I was bullied and X solved it for me so Y is completely unreasonable and stupid" if you're not careful. Saying that, I agree that someone learning martial arts to defend themselves against a bully is learning a martial art for the wrong reason. The stuff you learn (depending on the discipline in question) can either lessen the damage to yourself, put up an equal fight or seriously hurt whoever you're fighting against. It isn't something to mess around with. I learned a small about of Ju Jitsu when I was in highschool because I was interested in it. Yes I had a problem with bullies but I wasn't planning on using it against them because, let's face it, I'd be in a real mess if I broke one of their bones with it. Shortly after my first lesson, a bully threw a punch at me and I ended up flipping him over my shoulder straight on his back and he didn't bother with me again. There are two problems with this:

1. He didn't know how to break a fall. I consider myself rather lucky that I didn't break his back or neck which could have easily happened. I'm a tall guy so a fall of more than six feet straight onto your back at speed.... ouch.

2. When I was trained to flip people, the next step was to basically lock their arm and punch/stamp on their face when they're down. It was difficult to resist that urge. Ju Jitsu isn't one of the martial arts that can be done for sport as the point of it isn't to score hits or throws but to really hurt your opponent to the point that they can't fight you any more. Could you imagine that being used by someone young, inexperienced and with a hatred for their opponent? Not a good combination.


I will say that, in my experience, the thing that stopped me being bullied was a quick, sharp retaliation after all other avenues were explored. In doing so, I snapped one guy's wrist clean off (kicked backwards at him after he slammed a block of ice into my head, I'm still surprised I actually hit him) and I once punched another lad in retaliation which resulted in his cheek, jaw and eye socket being broken. I got VERY lucky with the last example as he took responsibility for it as he was already in a whole mess of trouble for fighting in school.


Acting in self-defence and the right to defend oneself can be tricky things to make an outright decision with. In law, you can only claim self-defence if you fight back with an equivalent force to the aggressor (you can't, for example, get hit in the face and then pull a knife out and stab the guy) or if you are in a genuine fear for your safety which you have to try and prove. The first thing I was taught in Ju Jitsu if someone were to start a fight with me, the absolute first course of action, is to run away. Fast. If they catch up to you, you then have to warn them that you're trained in martial arts. If they then swing at you and you throw them on the floor, that's an act that they pursued after being warned of your training. If I were to get into a fight and instantly did a martial arts action which left the aggressor paralysed, I could get in a world of shit for not warning them. It's the same with professional boxers; their fists are classified as deadly weapons and they WILL be in a whole world of pain if they don't warn someone before punching them.

Violence when being bullied is an absolute last resort. Tell your teachers and tell your parents. If it continues, tell them again. If it still goes on, threaten to go to the press if the school doesn't do something. Only after all that has been tried and it still continues should you even consider hitting back.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Snowbat on Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:45 pm

Hmmm. You have interesting points indeed. And they're food for thought.
Allow me to explain why I made this thread: a bunch of years ago, I was still at school. I was in a boarding school and at our dining table there was a handicapped kid. About a year or two younger than me and the rest of the people at my table. He wasn't severely handicapped. Mentally he was perfectly fine but he had some congenital muscle disease which made his leg and arm muscles very twitchy and pretty weak.

Needless to say, he was an easy target to pick on. So the other guys at my table bullied him with really mean stuff about his handicap. I kept telling them to stop it and to leave him alone.
They didn't listen. I had the reputation of being hyperkinetic, but not agressive at all. The teachers knew that I was a good kid that would never start a fight. This went on for weeks, the bullied boy never dared to go to the teachers out of fear for retaliation from the bullies I guess.

One day, the main bully made me snap. He took the boy's lunch sandwich and just started eating it. The boy told him to give it back but the bully replied something like "well, what are you gonna do about it"
So I told him to give it back. Of course the bully didn't comply and just said how good the sandwich was.

This enraged me so hard I stood up, grabbed the bully and punched him in the face, full strength. He fell down the ground and I could suddenly see *everyone* in the lunch room looking at me in shock. I was really not known for being someone who picks fights at all. I was shocked at myself for actually doing this. I had never punched anyone so hard in my whole life, except during martial arts class, but that's obviously a different thing.

I got sent to the principal's office. He was too very shocked to hear I had just punched someone right in the face. I explained why I did it but said it was no excuse. And berated me for doing it and (using his exact words more or less) "it's even worse because when you practice martial arts, you know better not to use it for this!"

Basically, I had fought fire with fire. Needless to say, the bully left the boy alone from that day on because after that, he actually told me he realizes he went too far.
But do I regret doing it? Hell no. I don't. I know I should regret it but I just can't. I could have gone to the teacher and tell everything and stuff... but I dunno I still feel I did something that actually helped.

I absolutely despise bullies. It's the best way to make me really angry. I was talking about this with a friend a while ago. And he tends to say I shouldn't have done it since violence is usually not the right answer. I find it hard to agree with that.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Binerexis on Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:08 pm

I would say that violence is often the absolute last resort for many but one of the first reactions for those who are overly emotional or immature. As I may have mentioned earlier, I was a real swine in school for being really quite frank and honest with the teachers there. Funnily enough, when I told them I was being bullied for the third time in the week and threatened to go to the press, they did something about it. Why? Because they knew that if I said I was going to do something, I was going to do it. Don't get me wrong, it takes a lot of courage to do things like that (or at least it did in my school) as the teachers will try everything to weasel out of it without actually doing anything. If people know you're an honest person who goes through with what you promise, they'll pay more attention when you make a threat.
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Re: Bullies

Postby tuulenkukkasia on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:12 am

I was bullied in primary school because I was different. That ended when I lost it totally and hurt the biggest boy in my class. I got detention for weeks and had to listen all the bs my teacher was saying. He got babied by the teacher and was allowed to skip homeworks for weeks :D
My parents said I did the right thing though as it would have never ended otherwise, school wouldn't do anything and parents can't really do much. They can talk to the other kid's parents but I am sure his shitty parents would have denied it all.

So my opinion is that it's ok to reply to bullying with violence otherwise it might never stop. Downside is that you will get a reputation for it. I had a hard time getting a bf when I was a teen because most of the town knew of how I snapped :D It was a big deal because I am a girl (I'm actually pretty calm person who doesn't normally response with violence).
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Re: Bullies

Postby sweetamber92 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:56 pm

The problem with school bullies is that they dont realise what they doing is wrong, they just think of it as a fun part of school. I used to get bullied a bit untill 1 day when i was about 13 or 14 a group of 10 lads kicked me to the ground and continued to kick me untill i didnt get up again, tho at that point i think they realised they had gone to far. Before that incident i used to be a normal person after that i completley changed as a person and i think they realised that they had fucked me up. From that point on none of them bullied anyone and only had good things to say to me. what im trying to get at is before people get to that age where they realy realise that what they do has dire consiquenses theres no rilly any point in telling them of the only way that yr going to diffuse the situation is by keeping them away from the people they target. if a child wants to learn to defend themselphs then thats theyr choice but they should know that its not just a skill to be used just to get revenge on people and that its a past time/sport. General school bullying i think is just childish messing around, it only gets bad when people get malicious, violent and revengfull and start doing real harm.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Binerexis on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:26 pm

sweetamber92 wrote:The problem with school bullies is that they dont realise what they doing is wrong, they just think of it as a fun part of school.


No, they know what they're doing is wrong and dickish but they do it anyway.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Canaletto on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:36 pm

Resorting to violence in response to bullying is a surefire way to stop the bullying. It is pretty much the only thing that will register and end the saga. Being a peaceful person is one thing (a good and proper thing no less), but sometimes you have to stand up for yourself.

The whole "martial arts is not intended for violence" etc... is bollox. No matter how you wrap it up, it is fighting. Not saying violence is even wrong in certain cirumcstances, however I don't think you can sugar coat martial arts away from what it really is. Sure, the philisophical aspects about martial arts bettering a person overall and introducing discipline and self-awareness/confidence and improved health are valid. But you cannot have martial arts without violence.

I will tweak this slightly and suggest bullying would not occur if you had proper parenting. Unfortunately, a LOT of couples/people who are not fit to parent or cannot afford to have kids, do. This leads to all these types of problems within the youth circles and beyond.

Stop it at source. Massively tough to do, but that is the challenge our society faces. Not just for bullying but for many despicable aspects of human interaction in our modern day life.

For example if you did away with religion, half the population of the planet would no longer have an excuse for killing one another or hating one another. Alas, we are humans, we will never stop bullying, killing or hating one another for a multitude of reasons.


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Re: Bullies

Postby Binerexis on Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:05 pm

Where did you get the notion that someone said "martial arts are not intended for violence"? The only phrase used in this thread and that I've heard in common speech is "Martial arts should only be used in self-defence" which is a very different thing.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Canaletto on Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:17 pm

Sure, but there is a suggestion that seeking to gain knowledge in martial arts to defend yourself is for the wrong reasons. Also, perhaps it should be that self-defence is the reason for learning. The two are the same, therefore, learning martial arts because you are being bulled is the right idea :)

Perhaps I should have replaced "violence" with "agression" or "force" ? Also, I raise it generally, not necessarily as a direct response to any particular statement in this thread, but violence has been mentioned in just about all the threads, if indirectly in some cases. Sorry if point not clear. <3


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Re: Bullies

Postby Binerexis on Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:40 am

I can understand what you mean but learning a martial art because you're being bullied can be a very bad idea. Yes there are ways to disable people with very little injury to them but all it takes is one mis-swung punch to the throat and suddenly a kid has murdered someone.
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Re: Bullies

Postby lambnut on Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:22 am

I ended up in hand-cuffs protecting a friend of mine :scratch: He was bullied and I took action :!: Knocked him straight down and kicked many times when he was down, that was the part all other saw, but I explained myself and told the police everything and the "offender" said he didnt want to take it any further and I was realeased. He was not injured just shaked. We was like 20 years at that time. He was an ashole and needed a lesson :!:
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Re: Bullies

Postby Cotillion on Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:35 am

Binerexis wrote:I can understand what you mean but learning a martial art because you're being bullied can be a very bad idea. Yes there are ways to disable people with very little injury to them but all it takes is one mis-swung punch to the throat and suddenly a kid has murdered someone.


It's not only that... but if you are schooled in martial arts and you use it for retaliation it can be considered as a weapon and then it will not classify as self defense, or at least that's how it is in the Netherlands.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Binerexis on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:06 pm

That's how it's seen pretty much everywhere as far as I know. When you get trained in martial arts, you essentially learn how to turn yourself into a deadly weapon so you have to be very, very aware of what constitutes self-defence.
"Everyone just shut up and enjoy your arena."
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Re: Bullies

Postby Aceo on Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:39 pm

lambnut wrote:I ended up in hand-cuffs protecting a friend of mine :scratch: He was bullied and I took action :!: Knocked him straight down:

Self defence up until:
lambnut wrote: and kicked many times when he was down

This is most definitely assault.


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Re: Bullies

Postby lambnut on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:19 pm

Aceo wrote:
lambnut wrote:I ended up in hand-cuffs protecting a friend of mine :scratch: He was bullied and I took action :!: Knocked him straight down:

Self defence up until:
lambnut wrote: and kicked many times when he was down

This is most definitely assault.


Yes it was, but its hard to controll and the fear of him manage to get back up and fight its the reason . I would assume. I didnt aim for his head or try kill him.
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Re: Bullies

Postby Shuriken on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:58 pm

This is why I go straight for the nose :)

20 years fending off bullies has taught me one thing, everybody cries if you hit them in the face hard enough
This is my sandvich. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. My sandvich is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my sandvich is useless. Without my sandvich, I am useless. I must eat my sandvich true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before lunch I swear this creed: my sandvich and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but sandvich. Om nom.

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