Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots dead

This forum is for posting meaningful and serious ideas and questions. Can be about interests, observations or serious matters of the world. If it doesn't fit that category, don't post here! Serious posts only.

Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots dead

Postby meyenburg on Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:04 pm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... le-1150749

Death for this guy wouldnt even be close to enough punishment.
Image
User avatar
meyenburg
UKCS Sponsor
 
Player: real1ty
STEAM_0:0:8411193
 
Posts: 6250
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Bobbobthebob on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:43 am

Although I hate armchair psychiatry at the best of times, this does seem more like a very sick person than the actions of someone compos mentis. Having easy access to weapons made to kill lots of things as quickly as possible can't have helped either.

But yeah, sure, lets kill the guy. That'll deter schizophrenics.
Bobbobthebob aka His Royal Bobness and Grand High Bob of Bobland
User avatar
Bobbobthebob
Experienced Member
 
Player: Bobbobthebob
STEAM_0:0:10020489
 
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:07 am
Location: Edinburgh



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby m0lineux on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:02 am

I agree meyenburg, killing him would be like letting him off the hook, but keeping him alive is mental reminded for his victims and their families it's a very difficult decision to make
Image
User avatar
m0lineux
UKCS Admin
Moderator
 
Player: Tickler
STEAM_0:1:2177441
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:24 pm
Location: Preston

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Unspecified on Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:42 am

Bobbobthebob wrote:Although I hate armchair psychiatry at the best of times, this does seem more like a very sick person than the actions of someone compos mentis.


I agree with you in this case i think, but surely anybody killing somebody else in cold blood cant be considered 'mentally healthy' though? Its not something a 'normal' person would do, almost by definition. Where do you draw the line though? Do we stop locking any murderers up and send them all to mental hospitals?

Difficult to judge this case on what we know about him so far.

I'm not a 'fan' of the death penalty, though i will admit there are some people the rest of the world would be better off without. It depends on what you want the death penalty to do. If its to stop re offending then you definitely tick that box; to deter others - as bob says i think anybody to whom this was even conceivable as a course of action probably isn't rational enough to consider the consequences; as retribution/justice for the family etc - whilst i understand that, im not sure its enough to risk even the tiniest chance of killing an innocent person just for that.

Anyway, i didn't want this to become a death penalty argument. The incident itself is horrible and that poor little girl. Feel deeply sorry for them all.
ImageUKCS Head Moderator. Retired Senior TF2 Admin.
Feel free to send me a Image or message me through Image with any questions or problems.
Don't forget that UKCS has an image uploader that's fast and free for all members!


17:43 - Salva: i did find out im not pregnant

One of the UKCS iSeries Clanbox Co-Organisers:
Image
User avatar
Unspecified
Executive Admin
Head Moderator
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: unspecified
STEAM_0:0:2326270
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: UK



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Security on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:41 am

Unspecified wrote:I agree with you in this case i think, but surely anybody killing somebody else in cold blood cant be considered 'mentally healthy' though? Its not something a 'normal' person would do, almost by definition.


Especially since you can teach a person to do something like that, the army being the perfect example.
Image
User avatar
Security
Experienced Member
Honorary UKCS Member
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Security
STEAM_0:0:8446840
 
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:03 pm
Location: In the dishwasher.

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Snowbat on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:44 pm

You know, scum like this just should get lined up against a wall and shot. For what reason would we want to pay taxes to feed and provide for a profoundly homicidal individual like this? We don't keep our trash in the house neither do we? We dispose of it. Why not do the same with guys like this? Along with child murderers, rapists and serial killers. Just end their life and bury that stuff deep.
I know it's an "easy punishment" but I don't see this as a means to punish the guy, I see it as a means to simply dispose of unwanted filth.

Now before you think I'm insane myself: do understand that with "trash" I mean severe criminals like this guy. There are obviously a lot of crimes that can be forgiven and for which the perpetrator, after serving his punishment, can be given another chance at becoming a good citizen.
But some crimes... just are "points of no return" to me. When you commit stuff like this, you deserve no second chance and should simply be removed from society.
Image
User avatar
Snowbat
Home Member
 
Player: Snowbat
STEAM_0:1:1977404
 
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:25 pm
Location: Belgium, Mainland Europe



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby re# Skilgannon on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:56 pm

at what point does the executioner become a murderer?

definition of Murder

"The general term for the killing of a person by another is homicide; murder is either the intentional killing or the malicious killing of another"

isn't execution the intentional killing of another?

and why would any sane person volunteer for the job of executioner? Surely job satisfaction would be the enjoyment of the removal of life?
for she is the Cat that walks by herself, and all places are alike to her

no matter how many times I put together the great jigsaw of life there is always the same integral piece missing that prevents the picture from being complete Annabel Rose Hardwick
User avatar
re# Skilgannon
Moderator
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Sunshine Snookums
STEAM_0:0:7668
 
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:05 pm
Location: Leicestershire



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Security on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:14 am

I would say there is a big difference between giving someone a lethal injection and the things done by this man.

Personally I wonder at what point you would stop giving people the death penalty, in cases like this it is clear this man is sick in the head and without doubt guilty but in for example the US there known cases of people who received the death penalty and were found to actually be innocent when it was already too late.
Image
User avatar
Security
Experienced Member
Honorary UKCS Member
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Security
STEAM_0:0:8446840
 
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:03 pm
Location: In the dishwasher.

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Bobbobthebob on Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:17 pm

Snowbat wrote:You know, scum like this just should get lined up against a wall and shot. For what reason would we want to pay taxes to feed and provide for a profoundly homicidal individual like this? We don't keep our trash in the house neither do we? We dispose of it. Why not do the same with guys like this? Along with child murderers, rapists and serial killers. Just end their life and bury that stuff deep.
I know it's an "easy punishment" but I don't see this as a means to punish the guy, I see it as a means to simply dispose of unwanted filth.

Now before you think I'm insane myself: do understand that with "trash" I mean severe criminals like this guy. There are obviously a lot of crimes that can be forgiven and for which the perpetrator, after serving his punishment, can be given another chance at becoming a good citizen.
But some crimes... just are "points of no return" to me. When you commit stuff like this, you deserve no second chance and should simply be removed from society.

You can dehumanise and "other" the guy all you want by calling him scum and filth. He's still a human being and chances are he's sick.

But for the sake of argument, let's ignore any issues of mental health. The reason we ought not to go killing those we convict of murder (or other crimes if that's where you want to go with this) is that the law makes mistakes. America is the obvious go-to example of what happens in a (relatively) open democracy that has the death penalty. People only get executed when the judiciary believes it really has the guy, just like in the Aurora shooting, and the appeals process has run its full course. Despite all that, America still executes innocent people.

By not killing convicts you at least have some way of remediating the damage done by a wrongful conviction. Even if you think that death is preferrable to life in jail, the the people actually facing that possibility i.e. the vast majority of those on death row appealing their cases, clearly think otherwise. And if you were to implement the death penalty, your tax claim hits a sticky problem: if you are to have an appeals process to make it as hard as possible to execute an innocent person (hopefully even harder than in America), it's likely to be even more expensive due to legal costs than incarceration for life. Of course you could streamline the process but that comes at the expense of knowing that the system will kill innocent people. How many innocent lives is your tax money worth? Are you that hungry for blood?
Bobbobthebob aka His Royal Bobness and Grand High Bob of Bobland
User avatar
Bobbobthebob
Experienced Member
 
Player: Bobbobthebob
STEAM_0:0:10020489
 
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:07 am
Location: Edinburgh



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Binerexis on Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:45 pm

Unspecified wrote:
Anyway, i didn't want this to become a death penalty argument. The incident itself is horrible and that poor little girl. Feel deeply sorry for them all.
"Everyone just shut up and enjoy your arena."
"...But we don't enjoy aren-"
"SHUT UP AND ENJOY YOUR ARENA!"
Image
Part three of my quest to lose my sanity

"Bin would get my Unusual hatz since he's the coolest, bravest, smartest and toughest admin." - Bruce Willis
User avatar
Binerexis
Old Timer
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Extrodisian
STEAM_0:0:19678834
 
Posts: 5282
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: The North



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Snowbat on Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:13 am

Bobbobthebob wrote:
Snowbat wrote:You know, scum like this just should get lined up against a wall and shot. For what reason would we want to pay taxes to feed and provide for a profoundly homicidal individual like this? We don't keep our trash in the house neither do we? We dispose of it. Why not do the same with guys like this? Along with child murderers, rapists and serial killers. Just end their life and bury that stuff deep.
I know it's an "easy punishment" but I don't see this as a means to punish the guy, I see it as a means to simply dispose of unwanted filth.

Now before you think I'm insane myself: do understand that with "trash" I mean severe criminals like this guy. There are obviously a lot of crimes that can be forgiven and for which the perpetrator, after serving his punishment, can be given another chance at becoming a good citizen.
But some crimes... just are "points of no return" to me. When you commit stuff like this, you deserve no second chance and should simply be removed from society.

You can dehumanise and "other" the guy all you want by calling him scum and filth. He's still a human being and chances are he's sick.

But for the sake of argument, let's ignore any issues of mental health. The reason we ought not to go killing those we convict of murder (or other crimes if that's where you want to go with this) is that the law makes mistakes. America is the obvious go-to example of what happens in a (relatively) open democracy that has the death penalty. People only get executed when the judiciary believes it really has the guy, just like in the Aurora shooting, and the appeals process has run its full course. Despite all that, America still executes innocent people.

By not killing convicts you at least have some way of remediating the damage done by a wrongful conviction. Even if you think that death is preferrable to life in jail, the the people actually facing that possibility i.e. the vast majority of those on death row appealing their cases, clearly think otherwise. And if you were to implement the death penalty, your tax claim hits a sticky problem: if you are to have an appeals process to make it as hard as possible to execute an innocent person (hopefully even harder than in America), it's likely to be even more expensive due to legal costs than incarceration for life. Of course you could streamline the process but that comes at the expense of knowing that the system will kill innocent people. How many innocent lives is your tax money worth? Are you that hungry for blood?

You raise good points. I guess I might simply have been a little angry when I wrote that first statement. Angry at this pointless violence and also a bit angry because a woman who helped her child raping and murdering husband hide the bodies of his victims will be set free in a few years in Belgium where I live. This has been decided a week ago or so...
It's revolting.

But anyway, you're right about the government making mistakes. Still, to me there is some sort of line that once crossed, you can't be redeemed (not talking in a religious way). I mean we know that a lot of the truly deranged killers can't be cured... pedophiles for axample have a very high percentage of relapse even after treatment.

It's a very sensible subject I agree. I'm actually not sure how I feel about these people. I'm digusted by their acts and they're unforgivable but if they're really sick it's indeed hard to grasp what goes on in their minds.

Regardless, this is indeed a terrible tragedy. I can't even begin to imagine what it is to lose a loved one in a pointless act of violence like this.
Image
User avatar
Snowbat
Home Member
 
Player: Snowbat
STEAM_0:1:1977404
 
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:25 pm
Location: Belgium, Mainland Europe



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Bobbobthebob on Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:45 am

Binerexis wrote:
Unspecified wrote:
Anyway, i didn't want this to become a death penalty argument. The incident itself is horrible and that poor little girl. Feel deeply sorry for them all.

What’s your point Bin? meyenberg posted a link to a tragedy and said “Death wouldn’t even be close to enough punishment”. So after a week without replies I replied in disagreement. Unspecified says he doesn’t want this thread to be about the death penalty but doesn’t say what it should be about. Does he have a veto or something?

I’m happy to move on to another line of discussion/debate but the death penalty is the obvious one given the OP. Presumably this isn’t in Thinkers Topics just so we can create an echo chamber of how we don’t like mass-murders/mass-murderers and feel sorry for the victims? This kind of tragedy sucks, but I thought this forum was for holding forth on opinions, analysis and debate.
Bobbobthebob aka His Royal Bobness and Grand High Bob of Bobland
User avatar
Bobbobthebob
Experienced Member
 
Player: Bobbobthebob
STEAM_0:0:10020489
 
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:07 am
Location: Edinburgh



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Binerexis on Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:23 pm

My point is that this is turning into 'yet another' topic about the death penalty but mostly I was just curious as to whether someone would quote me quoting someone.
"Everyone just shut up and enjoy your arena."
"...But we don't enjoy aren-"
"SHUT UP AND ENJOY YOUR ARENA!"
Image
Part three of my quest to lose my sanity

"Bin would get my Unusual hatz since he's the coolest, bravest, smartest and toughest admin." - Bruce Willis
User avatar
Binerexis
Old Timer
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Extrodisian
STEAM_0:0:19678834
 
Posts: 5282
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: The North



Image

Re: Batman bloodbath: Masked gunman dressed as Joker shoots

Postby Unspecified on Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:32 pm

Sorry, that line of mine was me trying to say i didn't want to, personally, turn the batman thread into another death penalty topic as i know i had started to talk about that. It wasn't meant as a moderator ruling saying the death penalty cant be discussed. There are other things that people might have wanted to talk about other than do 'we' kill him now, such as what causes people to do things like this and what can society do to stop it happening again etc, so i was trying to leave all angles open.
ImageUKCS Head Moderator. Retired Senior TF2 Admin.
Feel free to send me a Image or message me through Image with any questions or problems.
Don't forget that UKCS has an image uploader that's fast and free for all members!


17:43 - Salva: i did find out im not pregnant

One of the UKCS iSeries Clanbox Co-Organisers:
Image
User avatar
Unspecified
Executive Admin
Head Moderator
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: unspecified
STEAM_0:0:2326270
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: UK



Image


Return to Thinkers Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests