gun Control

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gun Control

Postby EWJ on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:20 pm

was watching this http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-destroys-the-right-on-gun-control-we-cant-do-anything-because-you-fear-imaginary-hitler/

and it got me thinking.. Is there anything they can\will actually do in America?

I hope they will but their politicians like all politicians are too cowardly..
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Re: gun Control

Postby Security on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:40 pm

I am confused as to why we Europeans even worry about Americans shooting each other and if they should restrict guns or not. It simply seems we over here are more worried then most of them are while they have to live there (same counts about other countries and there opinions about the Netherlands allowing abortion and soft-drugs).

Instead we should worry about the US copyright laws and the Patriot act or the massive US companies who are lobbying actively here for things like SOPA and TPP as they actually affect us on a daily basis, or maybe there stance on basically doing nothing to restrict there (air) pollution if that is more your thing.
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Re: gun Control

Postby ApacheFlame on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:25 pm

This is definitely a topic that is close to my heart as I am a sportsman, but also because I love the 'fun' side of guns. Shooting is a perfectly safe recreational activity if done correctly and as much as I would defend the sport of target shooting I would have to defend the recreational side of target shooting.

I am by no means an expert in American gun law, but have an OK appreciation of it.

Plenty more could be done in America that wouldn't violate the second amendment rights. The first major thing is to adopt a similar bureaucratic system to the UK. In the UK you have a license which you have to apply for the right to acquire new firearms. This is further divided into type of firearm and caliber. It would be a complete ball ache to implement and there are times where I wish the UK had different laws, but they are effective in the most part.

You are only permitted to buy a firearm that you have been authorised to own and the sale, whether private or through a dealer has to be recorded with the police informed of any sale or destruction of a firearm. In the states there is currently no such system for private sales and although dealers are required to make notes on who is sold to what there is no requirement for authorities to be informed.

I am not sure what 'Background checks' are required in the US apart from knowing they are a requirement if buying through a dealer. In the UK the background checks are done before the license is issued and the situation is reviewed every few years when the license comes up for renewal. They go through medical records etc.

Another major swing in the states could be the type of firearms sold. I believe currently the law on automatic weapons has lapsed and they are currently legal to buy. There is bugger all reason that anyone would need a fully automatic rifle. Even the military dont tend to use the full auto setting on their assuault rifles (LSWs and MGs are a different story) because accuracy goes out of the window. As much as it it great fun to put something into full auto and burn money (quite literally!) there is little point to it. Gun manufacturers are adaptable and will make firearms according to consumer demand.

For instance in the UK it is perfectly legal to buy an M4 assault style rifle that look 'the business'. The way they have been adapted to fit the UK market is by making them semi automatic and chambering them to accept .22 rimfire ammunition. In real terms this is limiting the power of the rifle as rimfire ammunition has a lot less powder behind it than a standard 5.56 NATO round. For comparison a standard .22 rimfire round has a muzzle energy of about 141 J and a military 5.56x45mm cartridge has a ME of about 1797 J according to wiki. This form of shooting, semi automatic with rimfire ammunition, is often known as lightweight sport rifle and is great fun. If you need something with more stopping power for hunting etc then you are looking at a single shot fullbore rifle (7.62 typically) which again will do the job without the shouts for 'we want an assault rifle to go hunting'.

I dont think it is worth trying to ban concealment of weapons as it would just be a step too far, although apparently you need a permit to carry in certain places. In some ways this is probably due to the way America was when the law was written. Frontier justice etc meant that personal safety was often your responsibility as law enforcement agencies could be few and far between. In the modern world I dont think that carrying personal firearms is a particular need, but I am sure the bulk of Americans would disagree with me. Though I am not saying that handguns should be banned. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction in the UK and an unnecessary one. British shooting sport has suffered as a result of the draconian way a ban was implemented and sport aside I am still sad that I can't enjoy my hobby to the full because of the ban. Although my wallet is almost definitely appreciative of the ban.

TL;DR: Ban fully automatic weapons. Have a proper licensing scheme with registration of all firearm sales. Handgun ban and banning of carrying in public is impractical given the mass opinion of the nation.

References: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states <-- Seems fairly legit and up to date
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Re: gun Control

Postby Binerexis on Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:05 pm

Security wrote:I am confused as to why we Europeans even worry about Americans shooting each other and if they should restrict guns or not.


Because school shootings suck. In fact, anyone getting shot sucks a substantial amount no matter where it is.
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Re: gun Control

Postby Security on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:53 pm

Binerexis wrote:
Security wrote:I am confused as to why we Europeans even worry about Americans shooting each other and if they should restrict guns or not.


Because school shootings suck. In fact, anyone getting shot sucks a substantial amount no matter where it is.

Yeah but it is up to them to solve it or not, we have regulations here which makes school shootings allot less common but it is up to them to follow our example or not. Since the right to own a gun is in the constitution they apparently value that right allot where we do not.

Should us Dutch start discussions about why for example the UK does not allow same sex marriage or soft drugs every time something along those lines comes in the news?
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Re: gun Control

Postby Aceo on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:14 pm

The US is big news because when stuff goes tits up, it has the opportunity to mess up a good part of the Western world.
While gun control isn't something that could easily, there is reason to look there for whether allowing easier access to guns in other countries is a good idea.


P.s. The UK does allow same sex marriage.


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Re: gun Control

Postby Binerexis on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:28 am

Security wrote:Should us Dutch start discussions about why for example the UK does not allow same sex marriage or soft drugs every time something along those lines comes in the news?


Well we already allow same sex marriage but by all means make a fuss that soft drugs aren't legal here when it's brought up in the news; it'll call attention to the issue and may get recognised by people in power here.


Anyway, not only do people care about US gun control because it's pretty sucky that so many deaths that can be prevented, there's also the point that we can discuss it even though it's outside of our country. Or do we need to wait until a European gets shot over there before it becomes our problem too?
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Re: gun Control

Postby Security on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:48 am

I just do not understand the world in general has such a need to discuss problems of other countries / people and the way they handle it, why not focus on your own problems instead?

Take the school shootings in the US, they happen multiple times a year (according to Wikipedia 6 times in 2012) and every time this same discussion comes up not just in the US but we here in Europe of course have to have a say about it as well.

Why not start discussing on how to for example make malaria medication more affordable as more people die a year from the fact that they cannot afford the medication they need then in those shootings? Especially since that is something you can actually do about by for example donating money or fighting for a reform of the patent system in the EU so cheaper medicine becomes possible.
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Re: gun Control

Postby Aceo on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:07 pm

Because we can talk about whatever we want and there are examples in other countries.
Also, there's nothing you can do about it lalalalalalalalallala :!:

In other news, you're just trying to de-rail a topic on gun control by saying don't talk about gun control, that's not how topics work.

On topic.
I think I could handle guns within the UK if it is as rigorous as Apache has said and more comfortable then I am with any of the tragedies in the US. We have (pretty) good healthcare and with renewable licenses, can somewhat catch any problems are they might happen.


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Re: gun Control

Postby Security on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:30 pm

Nice troll post there Aceo. :)
It might not be completely on topic but at least I am actually attempting to discuss something to understand why. And if you have nothing to say about that then don't. ;)
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Re: gun Control

Postby cowboyfromhell on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:18 pm

Discuss this in a civil manner please and try to remain on topic otherwise this thread will have to be locked, which is unfair on those who are able to debate in an adult way. ;)
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Re: gun Control

Postby Aceo on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:46 pm

ApacheFlame wrote:This is definitely a topic that is close to my heart as I am a sportsman, but also because I love the 'fun' side of guns. Shooting is a perfectly safe recreational activity if done correctly and as much as I would defend the sport of target shooting I would have to defend the recreational side of target shooting.



I would definitely like to see a slow re-introduction of guns in the UK. Mostly for recreational activities like shooting ranges. Maybe it would be best introduced as all guns owned by the range and are 'loaned out' for use within it. There would be similar security requirements as in some states in the US, that is trigger locks and kept in a secure safe.
I would also like to see added more laws similar to those in Japan, where guns must be stored separately to their ammunition as well as keeping the owning of guns a privilege and not a right. This is, of course, for wider implementation of private use guns
However, the whole idea of being a privilege could lead to some classes having a much easier time to getting access to guns than all others which would need to be considered...
In the end though, I think the Japanese way of Gun Control would be the safest implementation if the UK ever decides to embrace private owning of firearms.

To get a gun in Japan, first, you have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you'll file with the police. Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don't forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.


http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/


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Re: gun Control

Postby cowboyfromhell on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:19 pm

There's been reports coming in just now of another shooting in California. :(
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Re: gun Control

Postby Aceo on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:30 pm

Darn..they do seem to happen in groups of shootings though. There is some evidence of the publicity each shooting gets influencing further shootings from just putting the idea inside people's heads to creating copycat crimes. So, maybe there will be a peak point at which the media stops reporting them and they can stop happening or finally some stronger gun control will happen. There isn't much to be done about the types of guns accessed by people, but the ease of access is probably what could most be adjusted.

Just searching for California shootings and I at first thought you were talking about new years eve but further down I found what you're talking about: another school shooting.


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Re: gun Control

Postby MrsSekhmet on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:05 pm

Why would one want to have a gun in the first place, if you are, as apache is, a hobbyist, I can get that. But if you're not, what is the added value of having one?

That is the main question when I hear people saying oh they shouldn't ban guns.
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Re: gun Control

Postby ApacheFlame on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:26 pm

Aceo wrote:I would definitely like to see a slow re-introduction of guns in the UK. Mostly for recreational activities like shooting ranges. Maybe it would be best introduced as all guns owned by the range and are 'loaned out' for use within it.


There is actually very little you can't have in the UK.

Fully automatic weapons, (most) handguns and that's about it.

UK Licensing comes in 3 forms, shotgun / section 1 and section 5. I know next to nothing about shotguns and the law is slightly different there anyway. Section 1 is 90% of the legal firearms. Section 5 covers things like semi automatic .22 pistols (Used for rapid fire pistol Olympic disciplines) and assault rifles etc. It is nigh on impossible to get a section 5 license which is a shame for people that want to get into rapid fire pistol. They have to train with air pistols or train abroad which is very impractical.

Joining a shooting club is the first step for people that want to try shooting. They give you kit to try it out and you really shouldn't ever have the expectation that the first thing you should do is buy your own firearm. It's just not sensible as you wont know how to use it safely and the likelihood is that you just wont get it!
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Re: gun Control

Postby Aceo on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:46 pm

That seems to go quite against public knowledge and anything I can find on Wikipedia. It seems to read that all but historical, 'odd' and engraved handguns are all that are allowed to be owned.


http://www.sportingshooter.co.uk/features/ask_the_experts_2_8808/firearms_law_1_1529690 Seems to cover much of the shotgun laws which see, to me, to be a lot less strict than the general firearms laws as I thought I understood then.

http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/gunlaw.htm Describes the acquisition of firearms as being quite reasonable to me. The main part being 'good reason to possess'. It does seem quite reasonable and I guess my lack of knowledge is mostly due to the lack of Gun Culture within the UK.


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Re: gun Control

Postby ApacheFlame on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:49 am

Black powder are legal as are longarm .22 pistol. You've also then got air powered guns like match pistols etc and then pistols for iron plate action shooting which are basically immitation guns that are powered by disposable CO2 bulbs.

Semi automatic match pistols are legal, just nigh on impossible to get a license or range facilities for.

Let's ignore military acquisition because that really is a niche market and if you are getting into the military for the shooting then you are probably doing it wrong.

So that leaves us live fire large calibre pistols. There is no reason to have them apart from 'fun'. Yeah, I would have loved to have the opportunity to shoot my dad's Smith and Wesson, but that's the world we live in today. To be honest it is a lot less hassle to have a CO2 air version. I can keep it in my house without special storage equipment and shoot it in my back garden if I wished. The only other thing that is different from a hobby point of view is the cost and the size of the bang.

As a country we are actually fairly liberal with what you can have if you have a good reason.
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Re: gun Control

Postby Binerexis on Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:12 am

Security wrote:Why not start discussing on how to for example make malaria medication more affordable as more people die a year from the fact that they cannot afford the medication they need then in those shootings? Especially since that is something you can actually do about by for example donating money or fighting for a reform of the patent system in the EU so cheaper medicine becomes possible.


People DO discuss this but it never gets that much press because it's not something happening in their country. It's sadly a very sad attitude that too many people have.
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Re: gun Control

Postby Blast on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:28 am

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I recommend watching bowling for columbine, it confuses a lot on the NRA and the columbine massacre.
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