Sunday Times daily caricature

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Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby cerb on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:11 am

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this was reportedly the Sunday Times daily caricature on international holocaust remembrance day. it would seem the blood libel are not entirely behind us.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Little_Devil on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:23 am

I think it is reffering to the fact Israel are now building on Palestinian land. Something a Lib-Dem MP was reprimanded on by the chief whip, when he pointed out that the Jewish nation was doing this, on the day of the holocaust rememberance.

I think he and others now think it hypocritical of Israel to hold a rememberance day for the holocaust, whilst reppressing another type of people themselves.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Wombat on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:30 am

I have high hopes for 2013 as a year where progress will be made in this.

Netanyahu has lost a lot of ground in the elections which will hopefully gain influence for the sensible part of the Israeli population.

On the international side of things, I think the US' new secretary of state mr. Kerry might have a bit less biased view on the region than the Israel-lobby would want. Also, the Iranian nuclear program should stimulate a more balanced situation in the region, hopefully forcing Israel to realise they can not do whatever they like because big brother US is watching over them...

Cerb, I think it is unfair to refer to it as blood libels, which would implicate the accusation made in the cartoon is false.

Israel does have Palestinian blood on their hands, that is a fact, ergo the cartoon depicts reality. Whether or not they were right in doing so, is obviously subject to different views and something we can debate here.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Little_Devil on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:13 pm

Rupert Murdoch has apologised for a "grotesque, offensive cartoon" printed in the Sunday Times that has led to complaints of anti-Semitism.

The cartoon, by Gerald Scarfe, appears to depict Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu building a brick wall containing the blood and limbs of Palestinians.

Scarfe has expressed regret over its publication on Holocaust Memorial Day.

The Board of Deputies of British Jews said it had complained to the Press Complaints Commission.
Source BBC News

That it was supposedly an accident, it was on the Holocoust day of rememberance is of course pure BS, as there would have been less publicity at another time.
More and more people and countries are fed up with the poor Jewsish nation rhetoric and the support they get from certain countries.

Yes it was a bad thing that happened in the 2nd world war, some 75 years ago, but trying to justify modern day actions for something that the Nazi party did, is beyond a joke.
You may as well say that what happened in Spain in the 1400's was also relevant to today, which is preposterous.

I find that any country that uses the past to try to justify acts of violence, really needs putting in their place. As far as Israel fighting to not have Palestine seen to be a nation, I find quite pathetic, given that the state of Israel never existed until 1948. Read here for more info http://archive.adl.org/israel/record/creation.asp
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby cowboyfromhell on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:55 pm

I find that any country that uses the past to try to justify acts of violence, really needs putting in their place. As far as Israel fighting to not have Palestine seen to be a nation, I find quite pathetic, given that the state of Israel never existed until 1948. Read here for more info http://archive.adl.org/israel/record/creation.asp


This is a good, if a little challenging, read (it is academic in nature) which does quite a good job of explaining the above point in a fairly objective manner.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Binerexis on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:05 pm

I just find it laughable that someone thought the cartoon was anti-semitic.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby re# Skilgannon on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:59 pm

Little_Devil wrote:
Yes it was a bad thing that happened in the 2nd world war, some 75 years ago, but trying to justify modern day actions for something that the Nazi party did, is beyond a joke.


try telling that to the 10 year old kids that bullied my son at school for being from a German family, he was called Nazi, Hitler and all sorts despite the fact that the family has been in the UK for several generations when you get to my son's generation

all the more upsetting as I am descended from German Jews and Hungarian Jews so being called a Nazi is all the more preposterous!

Luckily he kept his mouth shut about the Jewish connection as it would have been 100 times worse, as it was it ended up with him being violently assaulted resulting in a fracture and eventually the police being called about one particular little darling

for those who lost entire families (only my Grandmother, her parents, 1 cousin and 1 aunt got out from a massive family) the whole holocaust still hits a nerve even generations later especially when you still have family members alive who survived Germany during the second world war

and hate crimes are passed down generations
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby syco cocker on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:03 pm

Tbh I normally take all this sort of stuff with a pinch of salt but this is very reminiscent of Der Stürmer.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby re# Skilgannon on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:19 pm

indeed syco!
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:54 am

re# Skilgannon wrote:and hate crimes are passed down generations


Entirely my point.

As far as kids are concerned, that is down to misinformation by their elders. Those kids have never had a good history lesson and the saddest thing of all, is that they carry that through into their adult lives.

They need to be taught that a race is not responsible for a political party or sect's agenda. There are many Jewish people that are greatful to German people for helping them, in many ways, to escape the tyranny of Nazi persecution. Schindler is but one of those, notably because he had such a major impact, but there are many many more German people that risked their own lives to help as well, some even paying the ultimate price for doing so.

If we wish to talk about persecution in the past and rhetoric, there is always a reason for the start of things like this, however many have forgotten why, and even more never knew why, the jews were targetted in the first place.

A lot of misinformation and mob like acts against a people, for the few that start something, appears to always be the way. The jewish nation has just carried this on by the very acts of injustice they have carried out in the name of being descendants of holocaust victims.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby re# Skilgannon on Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:34 am

with over 6 million of their people murdered I think they have the right to be a bit peeved and wary of persecution
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Security on Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:42 am

re# Skilgannon wrote:with over 6 million of their people murdered I think they have the right to be a bit peeved and wary of persecution

That does not make it right to oppress and murder a different group of people (even tho many people seem to think it does...). They are no better as the people that oppressed and murdered them in the past but at least the Nazi's had the balls to say what it was.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Templar+ on Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:53 am

Little_Devil wrote:
re# Skilgannon wrote:and hate crimes are passed down generations


Entirely my point.

As far as kids are concerned, that is down to misinformation by their elders. Those kids have never had a good history lesson and the saddest thing of all, is that they carry that through into their adult lives.

They need to be taught that a race is not responsible for a political party or sect's agenda. There are many Jewish people that are greatful to German people for helping them, in many ways, to escape the tyranny of Nazi persecution. Schindler is but one of those, notably because he had such a major impact, but there are many many more German people that risked their own lives to help as well, some even paying the ultimate price for doing so.

If we wish to talk about persecution in the past and rhetoric, there is always a reason for the start of things like this, however many have forgotten why, and even more never knew why, the jews were targetted in the first place.

A lot of misinformation and mob like acts against a people, for the few that start something, appears to always be the way. The jewish nation has just carried this on by the very acts of injustice they have carried out in the name of being descendants of holocaust victims.


Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg springs to mind for sure.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby re# Skilgannon on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:09 am

the Nazi's actually hid what they were doing from the general population as much as they could, my Grandmother states her family had no idea what was happening until they directly came under threat which is when they did a vanishing act from Berlin inthe middle of the night and fled to Lower Saxony, hiding their jewish roots as they went

at the end of the day I agree that people and nations should move on and live and let live but having a section of the family that narrowly escaped being obliterated and another section of the family who were the opressors (Great Grandmothers family on that side were German nationals in the forces) I have a fairly unique take on WW2

I will also say that all of the people I know who lived through the nightmare that was WW2 are very stoic and have a "carry on with life" attitude, it seems to be the younger generations that have developed a massive chip on their shoulders
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Shuriken on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:20 am

Without purpose one finds it in the most undesirable of places. Stoicism is often mistaken for apathy by young people.

Personally I think it's ridiculous that anyone, Jewish or otherwise, could find that picture anti-semitic. The fact that the board of deputies of British Jews has said anything has done nothing but harm their credibility in my eyes. Not that anyone speaking on behalf of a religion has much credibility to begin with.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:42 am

Shuriken wrote:Personally I think it's ridiculous that anyone, Jewish or otherwise, could find that picture anti-semitic. .


I do agree with that, a caricature of a person building a wall over the bodies of what appear to be Palestinians is no worse than many other political satires. It is to drive a point home and raise awareness of an issue, not to be defamatory towards a nation, people or sect but more of a political statement.

You do not see the same thing when we have caricatures of other political parties, including our own, being shown up for what they are.

Maybe we should have one of Cameron kicking someone who is disabled and lying in a gutter.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby EWJ on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:11 am

My thoughts, as a nation Israel is oppressing another people's right to live. I will never condone this just because of what happened 75 years ago.. you don't see Russia and their approximately 20 million dead constantly bring it up as an excuse to commit acts.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Little_Devil on Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:59 am

I did see a show with Gillad asking a simple question, why is there such a big Jewish lobying body in the UK, this from an Israeli born citizen, so cannot be accused of anti-sematism, which he says has been used to stop free speech on issues about the Israeli nation.

http://www.gilad.co.uk/the-wandering-who/

He has released a book which is very popular. The Wandering Who :)

Jewish identity is tied up with some of the most difficult and contentious issues of today. The purpose in this book is to open many of these issues up for discussion. Since Israel defines itself openly as the ‘Jewish State’, we should ask what the notions of ’Judaism’, ‘Jewishness’, ‘Jewish culture’ and ‘Jewish ideology’ stand for. Gilad examines the tribal aspects embedded in Jewish secular discourse, both Zionist and anti Zionist; the ‘holocaust religion’; the meaning of ‘history’ and ‘time’ within the Jewish political discourse; the anti-Gentile ideologies entangled within different forms of secular Jewish political discourse and even within the Jewish left. He questions what it is that leads Diaspora Jews to identify themselves with Israel and affiliate with its politics. The devastating state of our world affairs raises an immediate demand for a conceptual shift in our intellectual and philosophical attitude towards politics, identity politics and history.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby FunkySpider on Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:46 am

This is a tricky one. A situation that has many more sides then is openly let on or admitted to.
The picture, yeah it could be argued that this is a little tasteless at the time it was released. I'm sorry but it is not anti-semitic. It's political, yes. It's quite below the belt, certainly, but that's it. Let's look for a second at where this was released. The Sunday Times, a Murdoch newspaper. Why is this a surprise to anyone? Now on the whole the Murdoch empire's news coverage tends to come out in favour and support of Israel. Take a look at Fox News. But this is the thing about Rupert Murdoch, he is not in this business to have "Nation shall speak peace unto Nation". He is in this business to make money. He doesn't care how. Take a look at what he did to the British newspapers when he first bought them. He published the diaries of a call girl who was having affairs with a conservative politician. (A political alignment that in fact he has far more sympathies for.) He doesn't care ultimately who he pisses off just as long as he sells newspapers and makes more money. This to me is one of the major problems of market led news reporting in the modern age.
No as the whole Israel/ Palestine thing, I am willing to defend Israel when i feel they are in the right. (I am sorry cerb) But they are looking more and more like total hypocrites. You cannot go on and on about that those terrible acts (which by the way didn't just happen to the Jews, try talking to my polish family and what they went through and the people who they lost) and at the same time allow a group of people to suffer in such a terrible way. The fact is Israel HAS built on land that by international law does not belong to them. That is a fact, it cannot be disputed, these are occupied territories. There are U.N. resolutions in regards to this, look them up. It is simply antagonistic to further build on this territory and the last thing the region needs is more sabre rattling. Why does Israel continue to act like Iran? Failing to recognise the Palestinian people? Like Iran refuses to recognise them. It requires some ground to give and to be quite honest I think Israel need to face some facts. The West Bank and Gaza ARE NOT going anywhere and if they try to to further subjugate them, they will be forever remembered as a group of people who did not learn one of the darkest lessons in recent history. A lesson that cost 6 million Jews their lives and is a constant shadow over the German people and Europe. A lesson they themselves are perverting to excuse their current behaviour.
Now there is a valid point which is constantly overlooked and that is the Palestinian government, or at least one side of it. Hamas are internationally recognised as a terrorist organisation. They operate in such a manner, using civilian targets (such as school and hospitals) to mask their administrative and military operations. So when they do antagonise Israel in a way that is seen to require a response they know there will be a huge amount of civilian casualties. This incurs international condemnation and quite rightly but think about it. It's the gift that keeps on giving, you attack your enemy, seen as a great victory and then when they reply, they cause a huge amount of damage to the civilian population that incurs sympathy from the international community. Win-Win. If you do this to "win your war" do you really care about the people who are supposedly fight for or are you just a bigot who hate Jews and the idea of Israel and will do anything to get your way? Maybe I am being naive but i really can't see this as a credible way to put your point across.
It's messy, the whole thing and more then a simple black and white that either Palestinian or Israeli sympathisers would have you believe. I'm not going to even touch the ramifications and things to understand about the middle east area as a whole which further complicates matters painting yet more shades of grey on the whole situation.
[Disclaimer] I am sleep deprived so please excuse any mistakes or rambling put just wanted to put forward my 2 cents as last time we had this type of debate I was called a zionist and I'm sorry but that simply isn't true.
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Re: Sunday Times daily caricature

Postby Bobbobthebob on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:58 am

What the hell has this got to do with the blood libel? The blood libel is quite a specific anti-Semitic slur but it's being brought up here where the only similarities are "Jewish person" and "blood". Those upset by this would appear to think that being a Jew makes you a moral superman; in Netanyahu's case, apparently above criticism for little things like building an apartheid wall, settling foreign lands and bombing its civilians. :roll:
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