Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

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Should homeless/poor people be allowed to steal to a certain extent?

Fully agree
2
5%
Agree
1
3%
Neutral
5
13%
Disagree
4
11%
Fully Disagree
24
63%
Not sure
2
5%
 
Total votes : 38

Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Gh0st.IRE on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:53 pm

Go watch Zeitgeist: Abbendum and it'll explain how money is created and how banks f*ck you on a daily basis. However, this thread is about homelessness and stealing so please, keep on topic.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Nymphette Sparkles on Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:43 pm

Lets say I lost my home through means that were not my fault and now I am a homeless person who is allowed to steal by law, (I'd be interested to see how if you're allowed to steal or not would be judged). Why in the world would I want to buy myself a home? I am now able to get whatever I want. I could tap into internet and electricity supplies, you can't stop me, I'm allowed to steal things now. I have a free pass to all the food I want, hey David Lloyd I want a gym pass you may as well give it to me, I am allowed to steal now, I can have whatever I want. Ooooh! ferrari dealership, nice! Happy shopping for me. Why would I ever want it to change? It would just be enabling people to have a lifestyle they wouldn't want to change.

Actually I guess I could steal myself a ridiculously expensive house and then get a job to pay for internet and what not.... that may be tempting....
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:21 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23686277

Do not jail thieves and fraudsters, Andrew Ashworth says

Thieves and fraudsters should not be jailed, a legal expert has said.

In a pamphlet released by the Howard League for Penal Reform, Prof Andrew Ashworth said jail should be reserved for offenders who commit crimes of a violent, sexual or threatening nature.

Fines and community sentences would be more effective for others and reduce the prison population in England and Wales by almost 6,000, he said.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Flare on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:05 pm

Now thats a lot of rubbish that Prof. *koff koff* is sprouting...

Thieving and Fraud have more consequences than merely loss of property and money, burglary is a invasion of ones sanctuary and fraud eats at ones trust in humanity, neither should be considered a lesser evil.

I say we are ALREADY FAR TOO LENIENT as it is, crime may not pay but it doesn't hurt as much to try these days... human rights lawyers already hamstring societies ability to really demonstrate to anyone interested in crime that it would be a bad idea.
I remember cops being a source of terror (if you were up to no good, like in a club as a 16 yr old) and someone to respect, a sign of law and order... these days the kids flip the cops the finger, and cops get sued for even raising their voices at the little 'darlings'.
Jail is hardly a harsh place of punishment these days, more like a enforced stay at a boarding school...

... bloody bleeding hearts and moralists living in ignorant bliss with their heads way up in the clouds and cant see all the shit they are stepping in down here in the real world.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:32 pm

Well the police don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to beating people to death or arresting people unfairly. Just because they were once feared doesn't mean that they should still be feared now. In regards to respect, that needs to be earned. I'm sure the police will have the respect of a lot more people when the police decide to actually protect and serve.

If anything, going back to a draconian justice system will knock everything back rather than move us forward.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:26 pm

Ship em to the States or Australia really worked well didn't it.

Petty criminals should be penalised, but not with prison sentences, which costs the state far more money than its worth.
Its really stupid to imprison something for petty theft, that has cost very little, for a state expense of between £20,000 and £50,000 per year per prisoner.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -10-11.pdf

If someone goes and steals from a shop, then gets imprisoned for a loaf of bread, it takes you to the old idiom of may as well get hung for a sheep as for a lamb. Next time they go out they steal a lot bigger and do far more damage and why not when you have a system of the whip only. You need people to be afraid of a punishment, many people who have never been to prison are very scared of doing so, but once you have removed that fear, by incarcerating them, there is less of a deterrent. Giving someone community service and a fine is still restricting their liberty and they are having to pay towards society at the same time.

Far too many people with tunnel vision, wanting to use the proverbial whip to force a situation, until a time comes along when the proverbial whip is used on them.

As far as the police are concerned, I have little respect for a force that does little other than as a political tool, and does not do its job. I had a friend punched in the face by a drunk, for no reason what so ever. I reported this to a policeman sat in a car, who just answered that it was the end of his shift and he was going now, despite the perpetrator legging it down the road in front of him. His only other comment was to ask my friend not to bleed over his car. Many names for this twerp but respect was not one of them.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Nymphette Sparkles on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:59 pm

Well I do agree with the police force now being used as a political tool and that harsher punishments should be in place for first time offenders. PCO's should also have more power.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Flare on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:09 pm

There are several problems here...

Prisoner costs are related to being too soft on the prisoners, too conscientious of their human rights despite the lack of consideration prisoners have for others rights. How much of the costs is due to 'luxuries' ? We could even send our worst offenders off to another country for the duration of their sentence, offer another country (say... South Africa) £10 000 / year / prisoner, saves us cash gives RSA a source of revenue and lowers prisoner population here but nooooo.... the poor prisoners rights to visitation, the right to being incarcerated in their own country, even near home.

Define the limit of petty theft and fraud, would threatening be ample aggressive action to make the crime more violent or would the criminal actually have to do the victim harm ? How much harm because surely pushing over someone is really assault is it ?
How much can I nick before it is no longer petty ? How much can I defraud before it get serious ?

Cops are so quickly judged by the actions of the few, yeah sure a few bad apples and the cops are a force for evil, someone dies in a huge riot where members of the public where physically assaulting police officers and the police are the only ones who did something wrong ?
Cops are humans as well, not machines and can and will make errors but overall the police do a very hard and dangerous job in an increasingly thankless environment while being continuously hamstrung by political correctness and bureaucracy.

Fines and communal services are poor substitutes for prison, a fine sounds nasty but how high do you think the chances are the criminal was on benefits ? Would be paying that fine off at £1 / week for life ? Communal services are not much better, tell a guy to clean a wall... so he waves his wet rag / brush in the direction of the wall... what are you going to do about it ? Threaten to send him to jail ? Fine him ? Add more time to his service ?
These are not fine upstanding members of society we are dealing with, these are criminals.

I know there is a fine line between law and order, and between gestapos and gulags and secret police... but I also know we are way too soft on the criminal element of our society.
Hell I think we need more control in our society especially given the state of over population and out of control birth rates coupled with longer average life spans and lack of ... death.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:01 pm

I do believe it said theft and fraud, which will be minor offences, not assault of any nature , or threatening someone with assault, which brings other charges other than theft. People are getting jail sentences for petty theft (shop lifting) or benefit fraud (this can include overpayments made by authorities, but because the claimant has failed to report the overpayment, are classed as fraudsters). This kind of behaviour costs society a lot of money for something so petty.

This is like the waste created in local Government on top of the court costs. A benefit team will asses a claimant as being overpaid, then spend something like 6 person hours at a normal industrial cost of say £40 per hour in getting the overpayment back, a total of £240 to retrieve a £5 overpayment. Now extrapolate forward how much in person hours it costs to bring a petty thief or supposed fraudster to court, try to prosecute, and jail, this all before spending an average of £35K/annum on them.

We are told as a society we are spending too much money and there is a lot of waste, in which we have had local and national government cuts, and yet we still want to throw even more money away on something like this.

I tend to think this is to curb the ridiculous punishments upon people by a system that is out of control, for incidents of minor offences, and is in no way saying that major thefts and fraud, should go unpunished. It certainly says nothing about people who are violent or even threaten violence, which as I said, brings other charges.

Since no mention of breaking and entering aggravated assault, burglary, or threatening harm, which all carry their own charges have not been mentioned, I would presume these would not be included.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:16 pm

Flare wrote:
Prisoner costs are related to being too soft on the prisoners, too conscientious of their human rights despite the lack of consideration prisoners have for others rights.


I'm sure that the inhumane treatment of prisoners will turn them into functioning members of society rather than making them resent the system which treated them terribly. It worked in the dark ages so surely it would still work now seeing as, apparently, we've not advanced ourselves since then.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Flare on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:11 pm

Binerexis wrote:
Flare wrote:
Prisoner costs are related to being too soft on the prisoners, too conscientious of their human rights despite the lack of consideration prisoners have for others rights.


I'm sure that the inhumane treatment of prisoners will turn them into functioning members of society rather than making them resent the system which treated them terribly. It worked in the dark ages so surely it would still work now seeing as, apparently, we've not advanced ourselves since then.


Well the humane treatment of said prisoners hasn't exactly proven to be very successful either as there is a large number of re-offenders out there, and it has happened more than a few times where a recently released convict has committed some atrocity shortly after release.
While I dont typically keep up with these types of trends a casual glance at the goverments own publications shows a rather large re-offending rate of 26% 2010-2011 (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... jun-11.pdf).

I aint too keen on dividing crime into lesser crimes but I will concede that benefit fraud and shop lifting are types one could handle outside the criminal system, but it is at the tip of a slippery slope where it becomes all too easy to class more crimes into that category to ease the pressure on the criminal system due to over population and population growth rates increasing out of control.

As to the waste of tax payers funds by local governments, that has been the case for as far as I can remember and beyond... I recall my mother getting a letter where it claimed she owed the local authority 1c (RSA currency)... in a letter with a 5c postage stamp (let alone the cost of the paper, the ink to type that paper, the envelope, etc etc), my mom didnt have a go at them for that.... plus she paid with a R10 bill forcing the poor teller to use up all her change (teller was being arrogant, lording it up over her ... man vs woman thing issues).

I fear for the future, the population is exploding and the usual pressure release system (war) these days could work too well and leave the planet devoid of life. Firm control is one of the few options remaining, but that opens up a whole new can of worms like enforced birth control and requiring a license to have a child which would end up causing child birth to be a commodity, a service for criminals to provide and one which money could buy leaving the poor and honest without means to have a child.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:12 am

Not successful? Then how do you explain the continued decrease in crime over the last five years?

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-sta ... index.html

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-sta ... index.html
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