Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

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Should homeless/poor people be allowed to steal to a certain extent?

Fully agree
2
5%
Agree
1
3%
Neutral
5
13%
Disagree
4
11%
Fully Disagree
24
63%
Not sure
2
5%
 
Total votes : 38

Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Tue May 14, 2013 10:42 pm

From what I understand, it isn't illegal to take leftovers out from a bin at a supermarket. By putting it in the bin, they've declared that they don't want it nor do they want to sell it. It's like putting a monitor in a skip and then complaining that someone took it.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby FunkySpider on Wed May 15, 2013 1:25 am

Homeless or not the law is the law.
Admittedly it is a stupid law but as said by others if you start making allowances where does it stop?
This kind of thing isn't the solution to the problem of homelessness or indeed helping the homeless.
Perhaps forcing supermarkets to change their practices so that this kind of wastage could be put to better use. I used to work as a Warhouse manager for a large supermarket chain and i admit i probably wasted thousands of pounds worth of stock in my time and i always felt bad for doing it.
Effectively supermarkets order more stock then they can sell alot of the time especially when it comes to chilled goods. So there is waste built in to the stores calculations of profit.
This always seemed crazy to me. If the store is going to lose money on that stock anyway whats the problem with saying that instead of throwing it in the bin that it should be collected by the various charities that help feed the homeless on a dialy basis? This of course does not apply to all stock and some will still have to be thrown away due to it not being safe for human consumption.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Wed May 15, 2013 1:21 pm

I think the allowances people make with this type of quandary don't really snowball into a theft-happy paradise. The exceptions are normally given for things that are essential for survival ("If a man stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving family...") rather than luxury items, for example.


There will never be a change in the law for this kind of thing. As Funky pointed out, rules is rules. However, from a moral perspective, I think that certain staff at a shop where a homeless person stole some food would turn a blind eye. Hell, if I got into any real position of power at a supermarket to the point where I could change policy as a whole, I'd like to give all the food past its sell date but still safe to eat to shelters rather than throwing it all away.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Dargenor on Wed May 15, 2013 2:53 pm

I don't think people realise that all of us gamers are nice people, they just think I'm scary for playing games all night -.- I agree, Binerexis, all left overs would be out to shelters and I may even see if I could donate from the supermarket money pot OR even give the charities that buy the food from the supermarkets a huge discount.


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Wed May 15, 2013 5:11 pm

I wouldn't say that ALL gamers are nice people. I'd say that the ratio of nice people to ass-hats not so nice people in the gaming community is the same as the population at large.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Dargenor on Wed May 15, 2013 7:53 pm

Within the UKCS and Counter Strike community, I have noticed that many more civil and kind people exist compared to the ratio of the world


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Wed May 15, 2013 9:27 pm

Maybe it's just my experience from years gone by but seeing 'Counter Strike community' and 'civil' in the same sentence seems weird :P
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Dargenor on Wed May 15, 2013 10:46 pm

Or maybe I just live in a terrible place for grumpy and unkind people?


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Ama_ on Thu May 16, 2013 6:18 am

From my own experience the UKCS community has more mature and civil/kind people than some other communities, but when it comes to gamers in general, they are pretty much as nice as non-gamers.

Regarding homeless people being allowed to steal, my opinion is basically the same as some others'. While I would almost find it moral for someone to steal in order to survive if it really were the only solution, it is against the law and as it has been said, from the moment you would allow people to steal, where does it end? what is allowed to be stolen, what isn't?
In France some supermakets put bleach on the food they throw away so that it's not taken from the bins though. While I understand they are no charity, this food would definitely be best used if it was given or even sold for a low price to people who need it (but given would be the best).


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Gh0st.IRE on Thu May 16, 2013 11:53 am

Binerexis wrote:Maybe it's just my experience from years gone by but seeing 'Counter Strike community' and 'civil' in the same sentence seems weird :P


I'm with Bin on this!

But can we keep it on the topic of Homeless people and stealing please?
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby m0lineux on Thu May 16, 2013 1:28 pm

http://rt.com/usa/homeless-diamond-ring-reunion-881/

This is a great article i stumbled across a few months ago, this guy had no obligation to return this ring and just goes to show how honesty prevails and in turn the guy had his just reward.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Wizav on Thu May 16, 2013 2:11 pm

I think it's a slippery slope, we are all poor compared to bill gates so if we say its acceptable for poor people to steal from us we should be able to steal from bill gates.


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby m0lineux on Thu May 16, 2013 2:33 pm

I don't see how this is relevant, a homeless person would generally only be stealing to eat, drink and survive! stealing software is hardly something you would need to survive so is irrelevant i think.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Wizav on Thu May 16, 2013 5:06 pm

I think they should be allowed , i didn't catch the to survive part before.

Somebody should setup a charity that collects supermarket waste everyday and give it to the shelters and people who need it. When i worked for Tesco the stuff they threw away was unreal, 12 pack of chocolate bars with 1 missing would just get lobbed in the skip even if the other 11 were still sealed and good to eat. Same for drinks , crisps and everything else.


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Fri May 17, 2013 9:30 pm

First and foremost Governments should do more for people that are homeless or poor, not castigate them, whilst supplying aid to third world countries, giving them weapons and military aid at the cost of billions whilst letting the people of their own country live in abject poverty.

Charity begins at home, and Governments need to learn this, however they never do.

Government wants poverty in their own country and they don't care about the small amount of crimes of theft, despite them making all the noises of doing so. Without poverty, a government cannot have wage control.

To answer the question, yes people should steal food to live, where it is appropriate to do so, although supermarkets would rather throw perfectly good food away rather than stop someone from starving to death. We see this all the time, even in run down areas where there is a high percentage of unemployed, or where the elderly struggle to even get out of their houses in winter to pay inflated prices for the food we eat, supermarkets will sell nearly out of date food at a price which still gives them a profit, whilst throwing perfectly good food away, because the supermarket 'display until' date has lapsed.

I am sorry but when it comes down to companies throwing things away rather than help someone out, then I have no doubt people should steal from these types of legalised thieves.

Where would I draw the line. Well lets see, any crime that involved violence towards someone else, or by committing the crime cause hardship. Stealing to survive is one thing, but by causing harm to someone else you are just being like the Government who don't give a crap about anyone even its populace.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Fri May 17, 2013 9:55 pm

Can remember I once read a story, which you may or may not find amusing.
It was where a thief is caught after a theft that went wrong.

His pursuer, a policeman that had been after him for a very long time, pointed out to the thief how much money he had cost the police and the amount of time that the courts would waste in bringing him to justice. To which the thief replied, ah yes, but think of the amount of revenue and work I have created along the way."

"How so", says the policeman

Thief "Well by stealing, the Insurance company can sell insurance, thus creating jobs"

Policeman "Yes but insurance premiums will rise"

Thief "Very true, but it gives them an excuse to increase their costs, for a small change in premium, which in turn generates higher profits"

Thief "By avoiding being caught for so many years, I have given the police a reason for existing and created work for them, and been the source of countless comedians jokes, newspapers being sold, media service personnel employment and have generated a vast economy for so little outlay.

" All in all even now I have been caught, there is a prison service reliant on keeping me in jail and many hours of court time with the associated work created for judges jurors solicitors barristers etc. I am truly a boon to society for creating so much wealth out of such a small amount stolen by comparison, and at the end of the day, you will have to feed and clothe me for a few years, until my release, when I can provide you all with my invaluable service yet again"

:D
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Fri May 17, 2013 11:58 pm

By that logic, mad bombers are the best people for economies ever!

They generate profit for chemical companies, home supply chains, police, medics, media....
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Flare on Sat May 18, 2013 12:17 am

The sell by date is a hygiene requirement ... imagine the shit storm should someone die eating a item bought from a supermarket ? Hell there was a hell of a mess when some road block rail came down on a car, killed someone if I recall correctly... what would happen if spoiled food, which is basically food past its sell by date hygiene wise, was found to be the cause of death to someone.
It sounds all well and good to say hand the out dated foods to the poor rather than toss it out, but there is a reason the supermarket cannot sell that stuff, its not safe for sale and by definition not really safe for consumption.

I aint defending the supermarkets but lets be honest here, its easy to say they are tossing out perfectly good food rather than handing it to the poor so they are evil, but ask yourself who makes them toss it out... really evil would be to drop the price and flog to those barely able to buy much.

I feel for the homeless and poor but at the same time simply giving them handouts just makes matters worse, they will simply rely on handouts and charity to live rather than try get out the situation... letting them get away with stealing for survival is asking for the collapse of order.
Let a man get away with stealing a loaf of bread sounds ok, but what if he nabbed a cake ? Mineral water to drink ? Bottle of Scotch ? If you plan to allow certain basic foodstuffs be available for theft, what is the incentive to produce those foodstuffs ?

I recall a incident when me and a fellow serviceman was walking in the streets and a homeless man approached begging for money to buy food, instead of money my mate went inside a nearby shop and bought him a bag of chips and a sausage to eat, the homeless man tossed the food onto the floor demanding cash... and so got to eat a boot from my mate instead.
Often the homeless and poor prey on the gullible and bleeding hearts to feed a habit rather than to survive.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Sat May 18, 2013 12:05 pm

Binerexis wrote:By that logic, mad bombers are the best people for economies ever!

They generate profit for chemical companies, home supply chains, police, medics, media....


Besides the story being fictitious, you can hardly apply the same standards to a murderer. In the book the criminals philosophy was to do no harm, which is what prompted the policeman's question, and the thief's justification. A murderer takes something living, a thief takes an inanimate object that holds nothing more than sentimental value at its worst, and the majority of the time, just monetary value.

Flare wrote:The sell by date is a hygiene requirement ... imagine the shit storm should someone die eating a item bought from a supermarket ?


This one along with the best before date is complete nonsense, it is a stock/marketing date, and has nothing to do with hygiene. The Use by date is the only one required by law, and that is intended for perishable goods which may do harm to the consumer, if ingested/used after that date. Mainly used on dairy products, meat and anything else that can degrade and cause harm. I guess if the food found in the Antarctic had sell by/ best before dates we would know that you should throw them away, instead of letting scientists tell us they are completely edible and safe to eat some 100 years later. Guess the sell by date would have been up, a wee bit of time before :D

Consumers are always confused by these dates and use them as some sort of justification, either out of ignorance or because they have been told quite wrongly, that food should be discarded and thrown away after those dates.
Supermarkets throw them away as part of an accountancy system which allows businesses to write off certain goods against their tax, when disposed of, but not when given away. It is down to Government again and the convoluted tax laws we all have. It is a balance sheet write off where any goods, even those marked down in price always generate a profit for the business, they do not care about anyone else. You don't think for one moment that a loaf of bread actually costs 1 Pound/Euro to produce do you, and that selling it for 25p that they are making a loss ?
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Flare on Sat May 18, 2013 12:51 pm

Its hard to believe that the government actually encourages supermarkets to not give edible food away but rather dispose of it and earn tax rebates, I was under the impression the sell by date was determined by the use by date, to allow the customer a period between buying and needing to use it and to allow for a margin of error.

Its easy to say that it only costs a large producer x amount to make a single unit, but you need to factor in the issues of mass production. Production losses, wages, utilities, storing, mass transporting, stock of materials, competition for clients... it isn't that they can produce a single unit for x amount, it is that when you average the total cost and the units produce, a single unit on average costs x amount.
Like a baker cant make a loaf for 10p but could make 10 loaves for £1.

Supermarkets would probably love to 'donate' the foodstuffs slated for disposal to charities, its a win win for them... they get good publicity and the stuff is removed for them by other means, but I am also sure there is a issue of health and safety regarding handing out foodstuffs slated for disposal on the basis that if its no good for sale then surely its no good to give to people to eat.
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