Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

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Should homeless/poor people be allowed to steal to a certain extent?

Fully agree
2
5%
Agree
1
3%
Neutral
5
13%
Disagree
4
11%
Fully Disagree
24
63%
Not sure
2
5%
 
Total votes : 38

Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Wizav on Sat May 18, 2013 3:21 pm

Flare wrote:but I am also sure there is a issue of health and safety regarding handing out foodstuffs slated for disposal on the basis that if its no good for sale then surely its no good to give to people to eat.


They throw out good stuff all the time. Eggs are the most wasted product supermarkets throw away, If a single egg is cracked or broken they'll often just bin the entire carton cause people always check for broken/cracked eggs and won't buy them. Thousands of them are discarded just from transport alone and don't even make it into the supermarket. Others are damaged by staff and customers.

Stuff is usually thrown if there's anything wrong with the packaging too like the outer packaging of a multi pack of crisps, they can't be sold as singles so they just get dumped, that can apply to dozens of different products that have multi packs or packaging surrounding individual items. Dented cans is another one, usually thrown away even if food/drink inside is still sealed and good to eat/drink.

There was a program about this on BBC not to long ago where ordinary people were literally doing there weekly shop inside the waste bins taking hundreds of pounds of perfectly good stuff, still in date and still sealed/fresh. They waste something like 200,000 tonnes a year. Supermarkets would lose quite a bit of cash if people were just allowed to take all of the stuff they throw away for free instead of going into the stores to spend money.


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Sat May 18, 2013 4:15 pm

You have to look at the purchasing arrangements these big supermarkets have with their suppliers. Stock must be readily available on hand to sell to the consumer, 'just in time' does not work with food, so a sell by date is used. Think of this as an order from the sales department, that the item must be sold by that date, because new stock is coming in. Since Supermarkets in the main, know how much stock they will sell of any given item, this is not normally a problem, since the excess is minimal, and the supermarket has already made its profit margin on the majority of goods sold of any particular item. Any produce left over is just excess income, and if they can write it off against tax, all the better.

There is no incentive for a supermarket to give produce away, and they can always give money to specified charities from the vast profits they make. A decent Tax break again for them.

There is no win for the supermarket, since there are transport costs involved by giving food away, whereas a donation is a direct bank transfer with no other cost involved.

Why are people prosecuted for pilfering small amounts of food, because it is perceived and bleated about by so many big stores and the media telling you they loose money because of it They clasify this as a major problem and yet do nothing to alleviate the root cause, opting to waste many hours of public money in hounding someone in the name of justice. :shock:

Supermarket Tesco made over 2 Billion Pounds in profits in 2012, and this was their worst year in over 20 years. My dividend return on the past year from them is over 12%.
:o

Other Supermarkets are also comparable if not better on profit generation at this time.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby The Sinner on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:27 pm

If someone was desperate enough to want to steal food from me, I would feed them.
There should be no law against stealing food, shelter or indeed anything essential to sustain life, unless by doing that stealing you deprive someone else of life.

Theft for any material gain should be punished according to the severity of the crime.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:41 pm

I think that saying there should be no law against stealing food is a little too open ended. I mean, I'm not poor/homeless, can I still steal just as much food as I want?
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Aceo on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:51 pm

The Sinner wrote:If someone was desperate enough to want to steal food from me, I would feed them.
There should be no law against stealing food, shelter or indeed anything essential to sustain life, unless by doing that stealing you deprive someone else of life.

Theft for any material gain should be punished according to the severity of the crime.


Why not try to hit the supply side of this and try to provide the support that people need? Allowing crime to not be crime to certain classes of people is just a massive can of worms. Increase the effectiveness of welfare and this would be unnecessary.


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby The Sinner on Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:08 am

Binerexis wrote:I think that saying there should be no law against stealing food is a little too open ended. I mean, I'm not poor/homeless, can I still steal just as much food as I want?


Nah you would get fat and that would be stealing rather more than is "essential to sustain life" :wink:
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby The Sinner on Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:12 am

Aceo wrote:Why not try to hit the supply side of this and try to provide the support that people need? Allowing crime to not be crime to certain classes of people is just a massive can of worms. Increase the effectiveness of welfare and this would be unnecessary.


I agree deal with the disease and not the symptom.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:01 am

The Sinner wrote:
Binerexis wrote:I think that saying there should be no law against stealing food is a little too open ended. I mean, I'm not poor/homeless, can I still steal just as much food as I want?


Nah you would get fat and that would be stealing rather more than is "essential to sustain life" :wink:


Not if I work out.

In fact, if we're going on the sustain life thing here, what if I stole all my food so I could live but spent all the money I WOULD have spent on food on cigarettes and alcohol?
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby The Sinner on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:34 am

Binerexis wrote:In fact, if we're going on the sustain life thing here, what if I stole all my food so I could live but spent all the money I WOULD have spent on food on cigarettes and alcohol?


I would argue that if one has money to buy food in the first place, one is not stealing to survive.
Such action would be the equivalent of stealing cigarettes and alcohol, stealing food to buy cigarettes and alcohol with the proceeds.
The proceeds being the money one would have spent on food.

In some societies sustaining life is making it through the day, not ensuring ones trainers have the right logo on them. :shock:

I think we might have differing view points on what it means to sustain life, so let me ask
Would you let someone starve to death?
Would you imprison them for stealing another day of life?
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:12 pm

I think we might have differing view points on what it means to sustain life, so let me ask
Would you let someone starve to death?
Would you imprison them for stealing another day of life


This would have different consequences, depending on the country you live in, but if we take it that it is Western Europe, then imprisoning someone for stealing food, would actually be giving them life. Pretty strange society we live in, you punish someone severely for stealing food, by giving them somewhere to live free of charge and feeding them healthy diet. :?
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Wizav on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:47 am

It's scary to imagine what will happen in the future i really don't understand the predictions being made about world population.

1950 - 2.5 billion people
2013 - 7.1 billion people
2050 - 9 billion people

that doesn't add up shouldn't it be closer to 15 billion? even if birth rates drop 50% life expectancy will have increased by 100% of what it was in 1950 by 2050


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:56 am

If that came from the office of national statistic, I wouldn't believe it anyhow. :P given all their latest figures for unemployment and growth.

1946 through to 1964 are considered the baby boomer years, so there was a mass explosion of births, after which birth control was introduced ever more. I think after that there was a statistical 2.3 children born for every couple. We also had China introduce the 1 couple 1 child rule, which for the most part worked, thus actually reducing population. So the figures up to that point look just about right.

Some countries have high fertility rates others like Japan are low, 1.36 children/couple.

India adds up to 1,000,000 people to its population every 15 days

You have to then calculate the high mortality rates in countries like India.

Growth rates will slow in more and more countries, and high mortality rates of children will happen in Asia and Africa, due to poverty and food shortage.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:17 pm

Wizav wrote:It's scary to imagine what will happen in the future i really don't understand the predictions being made about world population.

1950 - 2.5 billion people
2013 - 7.1 billion people
2050 - 9 billion people

that doesn't add up shouldn't it be closer to 15 billion? even if birth rates drop 50% life expectancy will have increased by 100% of what it was in 1950 by 2050



Why would it be closer to 15 bil?
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby VampyrByte on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:35 pm

Growth rates are slowing across the world and have been since the mid 90's. The UN suggests a High figure of 10.6 Billion in 2050, and a low figure of just 7.4Bn. If the world is to hit the low figure in 2050 then a period of global decline in population will almost certainly be necessary. The UN seems to think that growth rates will continue to fall. But since we are looking 40 years into the future, its a long way off. I wonder how predictions from 40-50 years ago would stand up with the actual results, considering the shapes of the graphs I can't imagine anyone predicted.

I'm not sure if the UN has released any more recent papers on this. But I was just reading this:
http://www.un.org/esa/population/public ... 0final.pdf


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Wizav on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:42 pm

Binerexis wrote:
Wizav wrote:It's scary to imagine what will happen in the future i really don't understand the predictions being made about world population.

1950 - 2.5 billion people
2013 - 7.1 billion people
2050 - 9 billion people

that doesn't add up shouldn't it be closer to 15 billion? even if birth rates drop 50% life expectancy will have increased by 100% of what it was in 1950 by 2050



Why would it be closer to 15 bil?


Because it makes no sense that a population 3 times larger will grow almost 3 times slower. They should at least add similar growth which makes 12+ billion

Growth rates are slowing across the world and have been since the mid 90's. The UN suggests a High figure of 10.6 Billion in 2050, and a low figure of just 7.4Bn. If the world is to hit the low figure in 2050 then a period of global decline in population will almost certainly be necessary. The UN seems to think that growth rates will continue to fall. But since we are looking 40 years into the future, its a long way off. I wonder how predictions from 40-50 years ago would stand up with the actual results, considering the shapes of the graphs I can't imagine anyone predicted.


Does that account for life expectancy and technology tho? It's rising and once the third world catches up with the west and live to age 70+ you can add an extra generation to the population. Life expectancy for the first world is predicted to go past 100 by 2050 with all the stem cell research and other breakthroughs too. We could even prevent or slow ageing in that time then we'll definitely have population problem.


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Binerexis on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:01 am

It makes perfect sense that a larger population grows slower. It would only not make sense if we had infinite resources (we don't) and infinite space (we don't).
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby sNaKeBiTe on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:58 am

Hans Rosling made some good speeches about this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTznEIZRkLg


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:39 am

No Hans Rosling talks about population, not this subject, which is "should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?"

It is a good video, but it shows a decline in population growth, not a decline in the poor, which will grow because of the fiat fiscal system we have in place. This dictates that you need lots of poor people so the rich can maintain and grow their wealth.

My question is simple, does everyone think there is a direct correlation between population growth and theft.
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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby sNaKeBiTe on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:05 pm

Little_Devil wrote:No Hans Rosling talks about population, not this subject, which is "should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?"

Yes, but the last 6 posts have been about population. I thought I'd share a video, since there is still disagreement.

Little_Devil wrote:It is a good video, but it shows a decline in population growth, not a decline in the poor,[...]

The video does actually say that in order to stop poulation growth, poverty, and through that child mortality rates, have to be lowered. And I'm using the term poverty in the sense of "no access to fresh water or food with a real chance of starving". I can't speak for Britain, but here in Germany nobody has to starve and that's why i voted for "fully disagree".

Little_Devil wrote:[...]which will grow because of the fiat fiscal system we have in place. This dictates that you need lots of poor people so the rich can maintain and grow their wealth.
Do you mean a system of fiat money? Why does it contribute to poverty? And how does it dictate that?


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Re: Should poor/homeless people be allowed to steal?

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:01 pm

Create a topic on fiat money, and I will explain :)

Something for you to ponder on though. Banks create money out of thin air, with no actual backing in any commodity, other than a promissory note on a debt outstanding, which they use at least 8 times. They charge interest on a loan so need to create money to cover that interest. If you have a total of X money in a society, and you charge interest on that x amount, then you are going to need more money than society has, to pay the interest (x+interest). The only way to counterbalance that is to make sure you have serf labour, being paid a lot less than they create, so that the rich can get richer. The more poor you have in that society, the better off the rich are. More poor creating wealth in a society, the better off the rich are.
Another thing you should think about, money is debt, not credit. "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of £ x" Signed by the Chief Cashier on behalf of "The Governor and Company of the Bank of England", a promissory note for a debt owed by a company known as the bank of England.
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