Censorship Online to protect the children

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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby The Sinner on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 pm

re# Skilgannon wrote:...allowing a minor to watch Porn is classed as child abuse


I was not aware of that. And I would agree that exposing children to certain types of hard core pornography would certainly constitute mental child abuse.
The child may grow up with a fascination or desire to repeat the actions witnessed, or they may not.
The child may grow up to have hang ups and phobias and may have problems forming relationships, unless they meet a kindred spirit with the same emotional problems. or they may not.

Is that any worse than indoctrinating a child into an intolerant, bigoted, closed culture belief system that nurtures an obsession for the ideals of that culture that is more sacred than life itself?
Might that child grow up to hate and believe that it is acceptable to murder* other people?
All cultures do this. Some do it for a god, some for wealth, power and market forces.

*if it's not self defence then it's murder.

Finally, what might any child become that is denied the freedom to explore and discover in a safe environment?

I was not allowed to view porn as a child, I did. I was not allowed to drink as I child, I did. I was not allowed to smoke as a child, I did. I could go on but I think I made the point.
Unfortunately the environment in which I did my exploring and discovering wasn't at all safe. My parents weren't there for me. And there lies the crux of the matter, as Binerexes so forcefully stated. Parents should protect their children, they should supervise them whilst allowing them to explore, discover and grow, hopefully into a unique yet empathetic individual. They should be responsible for them.


Perhaps we stray to far OT here?
Last edited by The Sinner on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Children of all races, creeds and nationalities will happily play together, until an adult tells them lies.... Indoctrination the only legal form of child abuse.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Binerexis on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:58 pm

Well whether allowing a minor to view pornography is classed as abuse or not, it IS illegal. I don't think there are going to be police knocking on doors if someone under finds it online and views it themselves but there are going to be problems if you're showing a child porn. Of course, if you think that your child viewing pornography is a bad thing, there are ways to ensure that they don't see it e.g. supervising them, parental locks.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Allan Ocelot on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:34 pm

Read most of it, agree with 70% of comments.
Censorship in any shape way or form, Strongly agree with Binerexis on the topic of "Its the duty of the parent... to parent".
My views on the Child porno watchers is simple - if people wish to do evil, they will do so. It's been stated many times that the people who do this more than often get their material from Pedo rings, people they meet and exchange their awful material with in real life. How is censoring my internet going to stop these real life meetings of evil people?

The point I wish to bring to the table, and I'm not sure if its been mentioned is that the media is having a picnic on the new Royal baby (and please don't get me raging on the monarchy) ,the news that our internet and potentially our freedom on it is under threat has only come up on the bbc news site once. I am finding it increasingly hard to find people in my circle of friends who even knew about this new plan. So keep sharing and informing.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Binerexis on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:50 pm

Whilst the media is having a frenzy over a baby, to baton passes to US to get the word out there. Tell your friends, show them the article, show to them just EXACTLY how angry they should be getting and certainly show them how to make the correct unimpressed face.

The real life meetings of the exchange of pornography are pretty infrequent in number. It's not like some other illegal items where people can talk about it openly and get help finding it with relative ease, pretty much everyone finds child abuse to be reprehensible. Asking someone if they have any drugs on them is going to cause a much less visceral reaction than asking someone if they have child porn for sale. The much larger threat is the trafficking of children for prostitution and the physical abuse of children. Looking at child porn is fucked up, distributing it is infinitely worse and creating it makes you a reprehensible c***.

Adults don't abuse children because of looking at pornography. Adults don't abuse children because of the wide range of pornography. Adults don't abuse children because they were 'looking for the next thrill'. The reasons why adults abuse children are infinitely more complex than that and it's sickening that members of parliament are blissfully unaware of that.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Security on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:22 am

Binerexis wrote:That badge idea isn't bad, though.

That is what the Germans thought as well during WW2. :P
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Snowbat on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:41 am

This is a pretty stupid measure. They act like if porn is the evilest thing ever.
I agree that young kids shouldn't be exposed to it, but that's up to the parents' to make sure that doesn't happen.
The government acts like if it's "abnormal" or "bad" that teenagers and adolescents watch porn. Seriously now, what boy hasn't watched porn when he was 16-17 years old?

I'm not saying watching porn is something every teenager must do, but it's not abnormal if they watch it. Hell, before the internet came up, there were pornographic magazines and most of us turned out fine.

I have the feeling the governments are trying to create a generation of overprotected people. In Belgium for example, there is a new kind of fine called GAS-fines (Gemeentelijke Administratieve Sanctie in Dutch) which are basically fines they give for "troublesome behaviour".
A few examples:
- Fines for snowball fights because it could get kids hurt
- Fines for eating your sandwich on the stairs of a church because it bothers the view
- Fines for playing a game of tag, because running around could make the kids fall and get hurt
- Fines for yelling "Boo!" at a friend to startle them

What are they trying to do? Create a generation of sissies? So what if kids fall and get hurt? Hell I got plenty of bruises, scratches and abrasions as a kid. I turned out fine.
And now they want to outlaw porn to "protect the teenagers". It's kinda stupid. If you want to protect your young kid against porn, then install parental control and you know... don't give your 10 years old a PC on his own in his room?
As for teenagers... looking up porn may not be very "clean" but wether we like it or not, it's normal teenage behaviour. Hell, my 17 year old half-brother has porn on his PC. He doesn't want to admit it, but I've noticed his folder when installing an anti-virus. And he's a normal, good kid.
And if some overly protective, politically übercorrect parents want to call me a pervert now, go ahead. But it's ridiculous.

Do note: when I talk about porn, I'm talking about the "normal" variant. Obviously, anyone who watches or enjoys child porn, animal porn and other sickness like this should go get themselves treated. And anyone who produced this shit can go freeze to death on the south pole for all I care.

And in the meantime, the media goes gaga over a dead actor, a royal baby and a new king in Belgium. I can't be the only one who doesn't give a flying fridge about that?
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Binerexis on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:43 am

I looked up the GAS and couldn't find sources for the stuff you mentioned. Granted, most of what I was in Dutch but some of the examples I found were pretty reasonable. Am I right in thinking not much comes from GAS as whether or not to follow up on that law is at the discretion of the police?


This isn't a case of kids falling, getting hurt and everyone flipping their shit. It's a case of kids doing something that the parents don't approve of (and is illegal as they're under the age of majority) and the parents doing nothing themselves to stop it. Parents want little to no responsibility for what their children do and want to be blameless. It doesn't work like that. Parents are responsible for the safety of their children. If a parent deems it unsafe for their child to look at porn, it's down to the parent to make sure that doesn't happen. It's like if a child was allowed on a bike without a helmet, fell over and then cracked their head open. Parents can then whine all they like about bikes being controlled and how everyone should wear a helmet at all times but it was THEIR responsibility to make sure THEIR child was safe.

Whilst it's normal teenage behaviour to look at porn, the law doesn't see it that way; the law says that to have sex you have to be 16 and to look at sexy stuff you have to be 18. The issue isn't "Teens look at porn so just let them get on with it", the issue is "Children are looking at porn and the parents are super pissed off whilst doing absolutely NOTHING about it".
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Security on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:03 am

Each town can set there own rules as to what is allowed under GAS and what is not, I looked up some strange rules for you:
  • In Hasselt none is allowed to cover there face with the exception of (Christian) holiday figures like Santa
  • In Hasselt you are not allowed to sit on a bench in a way that was not intended
  • In Deinze it is forbidden to pick up confetti during a parade
  • In Dendermonde you are not allowed to use the same route multiple times when you are with a group of 10 people on the bike and when the group is larger then 10 people you will have to split the group and keep at least 1km of distance
  • In Lokeren it is forbidden to scare other people in public
  • In Ronse it is forbidden to make a sound without a valid reason
  • In Dendermonde it is not allowed to clean gravestones on November the first and second
  • In Borgloon business meeting that aren't outside will have to be reported 48 hours in advance to the major
  • In Oudenburg it is forbidden to own a Pit bull
  • In Wellen confetti is only allowed if it is bio-degradable and larger then 1cm
  • In Rumst remote controlled planes are not allowed to take off
Source.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Binerexis on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:27 am

For one or two of them, I can understand the reasoning. For a lot of them, I have a feeling they go unenforced as I imagine the police aren't too fond of policing people on that level.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Snowbat on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:52 am

Binerexis wrote:I looked up the GAS and couldn't find sources for the stuff you mentioned. Granted, most of what I was in Dutch but some of the examples I found were pretty reasonable. Am I right in thinking not much comes from GAS as whether or not to follow up on that law is at the discretion of the police?

GAS for snowballfight:
http://www.klasse.be/ouders/33604/boete ... e-jOayo5ZI

Eating lunch on Church stairs:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... kerk.dhtml

GAS fine for startling someone:
http://www.gva.be/regio-kempen/mol/boet ... ikken.aspx

Couldn't find the one for the game of tag though. And those sources are in Dutch.
I agree that parents should take the responsibility more. It's not only this way for porn, but for everything. It's almost like when something bad happens, it's not their education that is at fault, it's the system. A perfect example to illustrate how things go nowadays: 10-15 years ago, if I flunked at school, my parents would berate me for being lazy and not working hard enough. Nowadays, the parents go to the school and blame THEM for having their child fail.
When I was a kid, if I fell out of a tree when climbing in it, my parents would blame me and tell me to be more careful. Now, they'd sue the owner of the tree.

It's easy for them to blame the system, to blame schools or the tree owner instead of realizing it's their responsibility to properly educate their kid. If you don't want your kid to see porn, it's not up to the government to censor it. It's up to you to make sure your kid is protected: install parental software, don't let your kid have a PC in his room, explain to your kid that online porn distorts how real sex is and ... you know... be a parent and talk to your kid. Inform him or her.

But no. Let's just scapegoat the government when we fail in our education. Seriously messed up mentality.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby The Sinner on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:37 am

Snowbat wrote:I agree that parents should take the responsibility more. It's not only this way for porn, but for everything. It's almost like when something bad happens, it's not their education that is at fault, it's the system. A perfect example to illustrate how things go nowadays: 10-15 years ago, if I flunked at school, my parents would berate me for being lazy and not working hard enough. Nowadays, the parents go to the school and blame THEM for having their child fail.
When I was a kid, if I fell out of a tree when climbing in it, my parents would blame me and tell me to be more careful. Now, they'd sue the owner of the tree.


Amen to that.


Snowbat wrote:But no. Let's just scapegoat the government when we fail in our education. Seriously messed up mentality.


I would hazard a guess that it is more like... Let's just pass the buck and get someone else to do the hard and unpleasant work whilst we get on with living the comfortable consumer, self fulfilling lifestyle that market forces, corporations and the media tell us we need.

If a parent uses an Internet connected device as a baby sitter they only have themselves to blame :roll:
Children of all races, creeds and nationalities will happily play together, until an adult tells them lies.... Indoctrination the only legal form of child abuse.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Flare on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:08 am

This is just a politician attacking a easy target when pushed to deal with a more serious and harder issue, Cameron knows its a lengthy and expensive task to try tackle child pornography at its source and wont have much to show for the effort, but visible and morally positive actions like curbing pornography by filtering via the ISP's he not only looks like he is doing something he is also pushing the work onto the ISP's and search engine providers.

The problem is two fold here, first up the measure is ineffective as these rings are not sitting on Google waiting for a search hit they are hidden and accessible by word of mouth and introduction by fellow members so the measure is mostly showboating.
The second problem is more serious, it INTRODUCES the concept of filtering out unwanted words... wheres the guarantees it will end there? What stops politicians adding more terms and names? What stops groups like RIAA or BPI from adding words to the list via lobbying?
This can end up like SOPA or ACTA, just slipped in as a anti child pornography measure... after all who could possibly protest against protecting the children.

Parents must learn to accept THEY are responsible for what their child access on the net, what their children are watching, listening to, reading, or playing... they should be the ones monitoring THEIR children, not the government or some special agency.
Parents and guardians of the children.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Gh0st.IRE on Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:49 pm

I just cannot grasp why this needs to be a complete block of a legal profession (for some) when it comes down to parents needing to control their children. Educate parents on how to set up filters on the family PC/network.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby The Sinner on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:21 pm

Children of all races, creeds and nationalities will happily play together, until an adult tells them lies.... Indoctrination the only legal form of child abuse.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby philo23 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:51 pm

Just thought I'd come along and share some more fantastic news on this subject http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23452097
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Security on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:11 pm

As if using Cisco tech instead would have been any better... :P
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Little_Devil on Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:29 am

The Conservatives especially, but indeed most politicians will look around for easy targets to drum up public sympathy against one group or another, just so that they can do something at the end of the day, that will effect everyone.

In the USA the Government would not be able to get away with this, since it would be in direct contravention of their constitution, and yet UK Governments pull the wool over their own populace eyes, and make people in this country think they can do nothing about it. In the USA, major business would fund any fight against such legislation.

This Government has brought in more laws that restrict its population under the guise of terrorism, then any previous Government, and have indeed cancelled out a lot of the hard fought over liberties that have taken years to bring about.

In the past we had policeman forcing strip searches on people to ostensibly look for weapons or drugs, when there was a large gathering such a a festival. This was overturned and made illegal, now this Government have turned that back around again, and any person may be stopped and searched under the anti-terrorism act.
There are many such laws, or I should really say legislative laws passed by this Government that restrict peoples liberty.

Security wrote:This is just another excuse to sensor the general public, they always use children and terrorism as scapegoats to implement things like this.
Now it is porn, next it will be violence or political views they do not like and before you know it it's a permanent filter and you have the British version of the great firewall of China.

Big companies and governments all over the world have been at this for some years now to censor the internet but in small enough steps the general population does not care enough to fight back.

I really do agree, porn is just another excuse by Government to impose legislation on its populace, and will do nothing more than force the culture underground.

Sylar wrote:Surely we need to stop the children from BEING the porn? I don't care if my 12yr old looks at porn.

The government are idiots - they teach sex education to 8yr olds in school!

Very true and the kids are always embarrassed when talking to a parent of the opposite sex about it, or just don't talk about it at all.

re# Skilgannon wrote:my lad is 13 soon and I wouldn't let him watch it and I WOULD care if I found out he had!
just to note as well
allowing a minor to watch Porn is classed as child abuse


Shame that some parents are so deluded as to think this will stop their children.
It may stop them for a while, but that too will pass. :)

Government also needs to stop deluding itself, that it can legislate away every problem they perceive as being harmful.

When there was no internet, what did the kids do, they had peer groups, who had older siblings who had peer groups with yet older siblings, and pictures and tales were passed down that chain to the very young, Now we have put a short-cut on that by giving the kids starter peer groups in the schools themselves at a very young age. and because they are now educated in mixed sex groups, manage to be even more promiscuous at the earliest age of any generation prior to those education practices.

If legislation is brought in and because of the sex education given at such a young age, those groups of kids will get information second hand, regardless of what their parents or Government think or want. This will just create an underground movement that will be harder to trace.
There is also another factor involved here, and that is one of loss of business to these site, does anyone think they are going to sit idly by and do nothing. If I call a site digging for victory, call it a gardening site, then stick porn on it, will the software be able to tell the difference between a naked breast and a good Marrow :)

Mind you, when this Conservative Government drum up peoples support regarding the EU and how they want to change(restrict that is) the human rights act, then there will be even less laws that will support the general populace, and allow them to get away with restricting you even more.

There have been acts that have been carried out which are treasonous

The Ministers and the treason committed are as follows:
Closure of the Lords by David Cameron and Nick Clegg. This attempted to subvert the makeup of Parliament and the allegation is that it constitutes the major crime of sedition, which at this level, is high treason.

http://www.englishconstitutiongroup.org ... fOzTm3lcyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XeV4cfgTcI

If you really want to do something about porn, you need to start with the current media, and fashion businesses, who print pictures of young women that look more child like, and have models that look like they are hardly into puberty. The whole media crap generated from making children up to look adult-like, with make-up and outfits which can only be described as provocative on an adult female, transposed onto a child.
There used to be a well defined and fairly clear cut line between a child and an adult, now thanks to the media and meddling politicians, that no longer exists.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby Little_Devil on Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:06 pm

Foot note for those who are missing the obvious.

On line games are a major way of passing on photo and personal information to our youngest. This is why UKCS has its rules and regulations, to try to curb such things as porn, but not all sites do, or even care.

Thank God we have some great admins on UKCS that fight this on a daily basis.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby MrRapidByte on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:51 pm

This is just a first step for the government of the UK to have the biggest control over access to the internet for its people. This is the first step and if this goes forward, it will set a presidence for them to take further control down the line and just screw us all over.

Also doing this would not even stop access to adult content, you get free proxy sites which allow you to do anything and you are just being censored for nothing.
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Re: Censorship Online to protect the children

Postby MrRapidByte on Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:28 pm

Sorry for the double post but my first reply was before I watched your video.

Firstly, you make some really good and most importantly VALID points my friend.

I dont get how people cannot see they are taking "polls" and stats from unrelated things and smashing them into this porn censorship rubbish. Right in all honesty, I am a man and I enjoy women and I also enjoy the odd adult clip etc, nothing wrong with that, but not ONCE have I ever thought, jeez I have seen all of this kind of thing before....better move on to the next logic step....children.....WTF! How does porn naturally lead on to the kinds of things they are talking about, it makes no sense at all, if they could PROVE that, then I would love to see all the mass of evidence and scientific research behind it.

To the point of all 12 year olds being able to get a hold of any film they want.....notice how they say film, not adult film or porn, but just film. Clearly a later plot is for them to help big businesses with copyright issues and shut down torrent sites and the like. Now I dont know ANY 12 year old that can get a hold of any film they want. I know people who are 20's, 30's who do not know how to get any film they want and yes children and adopting technology at a faster rate than previous generations, however that does not mean all them know how to get anything they please. They should get random 12 year olds and see if they can do what they claim and if 1 fails to know how, then the claim is rubbish.

Also, for the point of kids making friends online and never meeting them.....uh huh....and? I have friends online who I have never met (mostly due to geographical distance etc) from old clans, friends of friends etc. How does this matter anyway? They automatically think that kids will take naked pics of themselves and send them to people, I have news for you, if a kid is willing to do that, then there is also something wrong with the kid. Child supervision is required, not 100% of the time but a HIGH majority of the time when kids are first learning to use the internet and here is something, maybe some common sense advice from parents.

I am a parent and I am for sure going to monitor what my daughter does online, make sure she is safe, get involved with what she is doing and how she is acting, say it be social media or online chatrooms or gaming communities. If you bring up your kids right then this kind of thing wont be an issue, its just an issue for lazy parents and doing this mass censorship is not the way forward or the way to stop it from happening.

As for the current method of getting filtering setup, it is dead easy to do so, but if you are not technically minded then here is an idea, ASK SOMEONE WHO IS and get them to do it for you. How about we get a UK-wide group setup that has people who are tech savy (not even tech savy, but who know how to do it) and work out a way to offer an install service for free, I would do it for people in my local community and I am sure there would be others who would do the same, instead of this mass blanket over everyone. Failing that, just phone your ISP and say "hey block porn for my net, thanks" and you can do it that way.

It seems like they are trying to compile a list of people who view porn, for what means? What are they going to do with this information, where and how are they going to store it and for how long? Will they monitor those peoples' internet who asked to opt in to see the adult content?

About the whole claim that Google is the biggest host of child porn, how much rubbish is that, if that were true Google would also be the biggest host of copyright infringing content, just because they can link to it.....its not the same thing, linking to something is not the same as hosting something.

So overall, they are just taking, and I use this term loosely, data, mashing it all up and around, then trying to use it to match there point is just stupid. Show us some solid research which matches your claims, back it up with the studies to show the long term effects on kids and how you prove all of this and then I will even agree to the censorship, since I am fully against this censorship, I know they can never do this, thus I will never have to agree with it.

Sorry for the long post, good video though buddy :)
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--Man Has Been and Will Always Be, Simultaneously Fascinated and Terrified of the Unknown.
MrRapidByte
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