LGBT Rights in Russia

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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Binerexis on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:14 pm

If you can't see the question I posted twice then that's really a pity. It also shows that you weren't actually here to have a discussion but rather just wanted to make hit-and-run comments/troll.

Oh well, maybe next time.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby ApacheFlame on Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:44 pm

I can see that there are two sides to things.

There are obviously people who agree with the government's stance on 'homosexual propaganda', other there would not be violence. However when that violence is shown against people who are minding their own business, at what point did they deserve this? They were not displaying anything that could be considered propaganda and infact in some cases were entrapped into it. Even in countries that have laws about homosexuality, people do not get beaten in the street for being homosexual and minding their own business.

Let's forget for a second that there were any laws pro or anti LGBT. The violence alone is abhorrent, but the fact is appears to be state sanctioned is worrying.

You said we should worry about our own country first. Yes, we probably should have some concern for what is going on in our own country. Does that mean that I can't worry about something that is close to my heart further afield? The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Little_Devil on Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:17 pm

Binerexis wrote:If you can't see the question I posted twice then that's really a pity. It also shows that you weren't actually here to have a discussion but rather just wanted to make hit-and-run comments/troll.

Oh well, maybe next time.

You know, I was going to write an explanation but you appear to be the only one trolling around here, so won't bother.

One day you may actually learn to read what is written, rather than put your own bias on something, but I doubt it.

ApacheFlame wrote:I can see that there are two sides to things.

There are obviously people who agree with the government's stance on 'homosexual propaganda', other there would not be violence. However when that violence is shown against people who are minding their own business, at what point did they deserve this? They were not displaying anything that could be considered propaganda and infact in some cases were entrapped into it. Even in countries that have laws about homosexuality, people do not get beaten in the street for being homosexual and minding their own business.

Let's forget for a second that there were any laws pro or anti LGBT. The violence alone is abhorrent, but the fact is appears to be state sanctioned is worrying.

You said we should worry about our own country first. Yes, we probably should have some concern for what is going on in our own country. Does that mean that I can't worry about something that is close to my heart further afield? The two are not mutually exclusive.


I didn't say I agreed, I just said people should have a balanced approach and take all factors into consideration, there is far more going on here than the media reports, and I have tried drawing attention to laws passed in this country with no one taking any notice, because of lack of proper media coverage, or media coverage that is biased politically and indeed it appears that people sprout off about Russian stance, but fail to report that Russia decriminalised homosexuality 20 years ago. It is one thing to bang a gong and scream you abhor violence, just like many billions of people do, but you are just another person that is having the wool pulled over their eyes for some politically motivated propaganda, that is probably not being truthfully reported, or the media is deliberately fooling you.

Does the name Edward Snowden ring any bells ?
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby ApacheFlame on Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:27 am

Again, if you had read all the information in the first post, you will see that I did infact say that Russia decriminalised homosexuality in 1993.

We live in an age where news is often being reported by people in the street are recording things as they happen and the response time is much shorter. Whether you agree with how things are reported in the news, you can't disagree that they are happening.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Shuriken on Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:05 am

Given your attitude to the entire thing, I doubt you could write a response to Bin worth reading, LD.

You wax lyrical about people reading what they want, it'd be nice if you read the things they wrote.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Little_Devil on Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:03 am

ApacheFlame wrote:Again, if you had read all the information in the first post, you will see that I did infact say that Russia decriminalised homosexuality in 1993.

We live in an age where news is often being reported by people in the street are recording things as they happen and the response time is much shorter. Whether you agree with how things are reported in the news, you can't disagree that they are happening.

I did read your post and did see that you had mentioned the decriminalisation of homosexuality, however I have not seen the media generally report this alongside all the other garbage. I have only seen one by-line reference to this, out of all the media agencies.

but let's not get into the rights and wrongs of identifying with a specific sexuality/gender and keep this about Russia's treatment of LGBT people and the the international response to this.

I have steered well clear of trying to go into the rights and wrongs of specific sexuality/gender, and merely said time and again that a balanced approach needs to be taken, but no, I have someone trying to interpret something I said, and then I get flamed because I will not be drawn into a slagging match. Everyone here appears to want to think the media reports accurately, when we know they are sensationalist and want ratings, and yet everyone here wants to believe them 100% Yes things are happening, but again the news cannot be trusted as to the facts. I am sorry but this comes on far to close to the Edward Snowdon affair for me to think that trying to embarrass Russia at every turn is not something that certain bodies have not cooked up. This hits out at every aspect of Russia, be that cultural. political and social which you cannot ignore.

If you just wanted a topic on. do you agree with this, then you should have stuck a vote up for people to answer. If you don't want someone to have a different opnion to yourself, then you should stick a big notice up saying anyone with a different opinion or point of view, please do not post.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby ApacheFlame on Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:56 pm

The topic was intended to raise awareness of what is going on in Russia regarding LGBT people. It was also designed so that if you feel strongly about it you can lobby your MP to show that this is an issue the UK population cares about and saying the UK government has 'deep concern' seems to be a bit of a cop out to say the least.

As I said earlier, ignore the law and ignore the sensationalism of the journalism and watch footage taken first hand by the attackers themselves. The video containing the beating of a trans* woman was posted on a social networking site on the page of a Russian pro-LGBT group. The video is disturbing. The only way you can deny things like this are happening (there are other examples) is by assuming that it is being faked and that is certainly worthy of the tinfoil hat brigade.

You are now referencing a point I raised in my initial post, which has been heeded. I have told you that I can see both sides. The UK government has a right to be tetchy about relations with Russia, but I think they could be more than 'deeply concerned'. Equally the Russian government has the right to enact laws which restrict certain freedoms which they deem unwholesome, which I do not agree with, but they have done.

My main point is that these laws are being used as an excuse for violence and discrimination against LGBT people, which is something that we shouldn't stand for. If someone was beaten for being jewish there would be uproar, why should the same uproar not be shown for a different minority grouping? Yes, you can of course be angry at the plight of XYZ in ABC, but as I said before, I have a particular interest in LGBT rights.

Let's go back to a case in the UK. Section 28 was basically the same as the law passed in Russia, but applied to schools. It said that you could not teach people about homosexual relationships, full details can be found on the wiki page. I was at school during section 28 and yes, it did cause me anguish as I was questioning my sexuality at the time and things certainly someone at least mentioning that it was OK to like both sexes would have made my life significantly easier. Equally, as it was not spoken about at a teaching level it made talking about it within friendship groups awkward as hell and 'coming out' to friends and family was pretty uncomfortable. The knock on effect was that there was a culture where it was considered not OK to be non-heterosexual.

I believe that with the repeal in 2003 it will start to get easier for the younger generation to come to terms with questions they may be having about their sexuality. Obviously the rise in popularity of online resources and social networking means that there are also more sources of information so any survey would struggle to attribute the impact appropriately. Also there is a culture shift whereby it is now generally accepted that LGBT relationships are normal I believe is a product of the repeal of Section 28.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Little_Devil on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:42 pm

Shuriken wrote:Given your attitude to the entire thing, I doubt you could write a response to Bin worth reading, LD.

You wax lyrical about people reading what they want, it'd be nice if you read the things they wrote.


OK lets take the attitude you and Bin appear to have. You are instructed in writing by your boss at work to do something, you then say something obscure and completely out of context with the instructions given to you, you then say something like, so you want me to "put something in here that bares no relationship to what your bosses instructions say", then ask him repeatedly to answer your question, Doubt the boss would even bother answering or trying to make you see how silly and obscure the question you just asked is.

I did not say something, so why ask even once, let alone twice, if I meant something I clearly did not write. Its completely pathetic and stupid, If I wanted to say something of that nature, I would have said it. jeez like talking to a brick wall.

ApacheFlame wrote:The topic was intended to raise awareness of what is going on in Russia regarding LGBT people. It was also designed so that if you feel strongly about it you can lobby your MP to show that this is an issue the UK population cares about and saying the UK government has 'deep concern' seems to be a bit of a cop out to say the least.


That is fine and if you had stated the purpose was to raise awareness, and ask for only people who are willing to accept the media story line, and those who want to give full support to something like this, then that also would be fine.

However read this:
Unspecified wrote:Mod note: Everybody is free to post their point of view on a topic in Thinkers, even if its not a popular one. However everyone is equally expected to justify/explain/discuss/elaborate the points they do make so it remains a mature discussion, rather than a series of "i agree" / "i disagree" without context - which also stops posts appearing to be purely to troll.

Now all I have repeatedly said is to be aware of what you read and have a balanced point of view, and yet we find the intolerance to someone else's point of view beggers belief, on a thread which is supposed to be about supporting someone in another country to be able to express themselves without fear of prejudice.

The video containing the beating of a trans* woman was posted on a social networking site on the page of a Russian pro-LGBT group.

I have tried viewing it but it never comes up. Of course it was on a pro LBGT site, where else would you post it. Its the first place that biased and easily convinced people will go to.

Now as I have stated so many times already, I like to hold a different view than to follow the media line, and to say that anyone that questions media and social networking sites as to motive, is from the tin foil hat brigade is down right insulting to any intelligent person. I would say it is the ostrich nature and I won't believe anything other than my own prejudice types that should be castigated.

I am glad you talk about having a balanced view, now all that is left is to practice what you preach.

Since you have clearly changed the nature of the thread by statements in your last post, I shall withdraw, from this thread, since I cannot in all honesty call a biased thread honest or worthy of any debate.

People on here are just as bad as the Russian Mobsters and the very people they are bringing an awareness about, full of hate for anything different or for anyone with a different point of view.

Does that remind you of something.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Unspecified on Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:16 pm

Ok I'm reopening this topic to allow further discussion of the original topic.

Please keep it to a discussion of what you think about the issue itself, not what you think about what somebody else thinks and refrain from personal comments at other posters. You don't have to agree with what somebody else thinks nor try and force them to agree with you.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Binerexis on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:30 pm

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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby ApacheFlame on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:53 pm

Yes, I read that. If it becomes a precedent then it is extremely concerning. Being an activist he has almost by definition broken the law on homosexual propaganda, so I can't say I am surprised.

If this becomes a culture of whispering to the authorities that their neighbour is homosexual and that is followed up by police intervention then that would be well over the mark. You cannot become more blatant in violating human rights than invading someone's private life because of their sexual orientation. It actually breaks article 12 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights and probably 9 and almost certainly others. I only had a quick scan read though.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Enigma on Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:25 pm

UK government also breaks article No. 12 (Secret service reading your communication), pretty sure article No. 19 (people arrested for Facebook posts) gets ignored in the UK as well. Why is nobody protesting against that? UK is in so much shit that you shouldn't care about what's happening outside but what's going on inside your own country.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby ApacheFlame on Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:21 pm

Seriously Enigma,

ApacheFlame wrote:
I am obviously willing for this to turn into a debate, but let's not get into the rights and wrongs of identifying with a specific sexuality/gender and keep this about Russia's treatment of LGBT people and the the international response to this.


That was in the first post.

ApacheFlame wrote:
OK, let's play Devil's advocate. Why not protest over Uganda's stance on LGBT people, where being openly homosexual can result in the death penalty. Yes, this is very screwed up. There are many causes that should be championed, not limited to LGBT rights, however is this a reason not to support a cause that someone has got off their backside to do something about? It's wonderfully absurd to complain about someone else's inaction if you're not actively trying to resolve the problem yourself...


Post half way down the first page. Made bold for emphasis, which is wasn't in quoted post.

If you're not willing to read the thread, please think twice before hitting the submit.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby re# Skilgannon on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:17 pm

Enigma wrote:UK government also breaks article No. 12 (Secret service reading your communication), pretty sure article No. 19 (people arrested for Facebook posts) gets ignored in the UK as well. Why is nobody protesting against that? UK is in so much shit that you shouldn't care about what's happening outside but what's going on inside your own country.


Article 12 breach is under investigation and yes people HAVE been arrested (and charged) for both facebook and twitter posts


this is a thread about LGBT rights in Russia not any failings in other countries

stay on track please
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Little_Devil on Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:16 am

ApacheFlame wrote:Yes, I read that. If it becomes a precedent then it is extremely concerning. Being an activist he has almost by definition broken the law on homosexual propaganda, so I can't say I am surprised.


As I said earlier, you have to look at the culture of a country to understand what could be going on.

In the good old communist days, it was quite common for people to be wary of their neighbours, since at any point in time they could be reported to the police, east Germany was the same with the stasi, who were the real deal when it came to punishing people for having different beliefs.
I am afraid this is ingrained into Russian society, and will take a number of generations to clear. It is all too easy for someone who has come from the West to say all sorts about the Russians, when they have lived in a country that does allow a lot of free speech, but it has been the Russians way of life and culture for over 60 years, and yes the police did stick to their old ways, even after the collapse of communism.
Propaganda Laws have always been around for the Russians, and this law is no different to all the others in the past, the difference being this is media grabbing

I don't know the whole story behind this and nor does anyone else, but you can bet anything you like there is more than is being reported. Maybe it is because an artist decided to draw Putin in drag which then becomes a direct attack on the state.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2 ... ti-gay-law

Whenever you look at any situation of this nature, you have to look at all aspects, not just those concentrated on by the media, who do not always tell the truth, and very often leave out information to sensationalise a story.

We had Putin being attacked politicly, we had the Muslims complaining about gay literature being flaunted in their districts and we have the Yanks bleating about Snowden, and this is only just a starting point, with the upcoming G20 meetings. With a bit of research you should be able to find a number of things which can be attributed to this latest turn of events, as long as you are willing to open your eyes and be un-blinkered about the whole scenario. Having a narrow mind is not good when looking at anything politically.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby ApacheFlame on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:49 am

I don't understand how I am being blinkered? I am certain that as an activist he has broken the law and so am not surprised he has been arrested and his home searched. The same would be applicable if he was under suspicion of breaking the law in most other countries.

What I would be concerned about, regardless of whether it is the cultural norm or not, is that a situation could arise where you could have your home searched and be arrested just for being gay, it all comes down to the Russian definition of 'propaganda'.

I am concerned about a great many things in the world LD, as I stated earlier. Just because I am banging a drum in this thread, please don't assume that I don't have worries about the rest of the troubles at home and abroad. For instance I have done a fair amount of work with the OPCW and have trained a decent amount of prospective chemical weapons inspectors, most of which already work with their national authorities and some of which are current or previous active inspectors. I am concerned for their safety at a time where they are entering war zones to quantify something we have evidence of use from a regime that seems hell bent on killing its own people and a group of rebels/freedom fighters (delete as per publication guidelines) who also seem implicated in small scale CW attacks.

This is the last time I will say this. Just because this thread is about LGBT rights in Russia does not mean I have a blinkered view of the world. Will people please stop trying to derail this thread by saying other important things exist. I have many academic qualifications showing that I am capable of critical analysis and frankly, I am not an idiot. I am taking your post as being directed at me as the quote at the head of your post is a quote from one of my posts. By all means question the validity of evidence shown and I will be open to debate on it as per my first two sentences, but to be honest I am getting tired of defending my own ability to be unbiased.
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Re: LGBT Rights in Russia

Postby Little_Devil on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:45 am

Oh well in future I should, I suppose, really be very explicit when writing anything at all on this thread, for fear that someone is going to jump on their hobby-horse or feel that a remark is being directed at them personally because they cannot delineate between generalisations and pointed remarks (<-This is a generalisation based on the previous comments I have had).

So just for you here it is again:
ApacheFlame wrote:Yes, I read that. If it becomes a precedent then it is extremely concerning. Being an activist he has almost by definition broken the law on homosexual propaganda, so I can't say I am surprised.


As I said earlier, you have to look at the culture of a country to understand what could be going on.

=== The End of my comment based on the above quote, this being the only part aimed at that quote ==================================
=== I shouldn't need to do this since there is a clear and definitive paragraph break but for the sake of clarity =============================

Read the rest below that as general information and the terms blinkered when talking about media publications, and people who just want to take this in isolation and not as a wider issue.
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