The violence of words

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The violence of words

Postby Ama_ on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:31 pm

I have been thinking about this for some time since I'm working now in a school with 11-15 years old, and have witnessed one of the - too many - examples of drama on DeviantART (you know, the "art" community).

I'm not sure I ever realised until now the weight words could have on someone. When I was a teenager, I was kind of a weirdo people would simply leave alone. Eventually they would talk in my back, but I didn't care as I had some better business to care about, except that one time in high school I got mad because I was hearing my "friends" constantly trash talk about me.
Thinking about it now, I think I would have gotten mad much sooner if I had any clue what was going on, but as I said, I was too busy dealing with some other issues. But now as an adult, I have a very low self confidence and I'm pretty sure that trash talk didn't help me.

Anyways, I mentioned the drama on deviantart. In a nutshell, as the website grew bigger, the community grew worse, filled with 14 years old begging for attention, trolls and whiteknights of all sorts. I stayed away from the drama until I stumbled across a very weird case of a girl who was verbally assaulting everyone who happened to like fictional characters she disliked. Besides her way of acting, what surprised me the most was the way people were reacting, including people who were total strangers to the situation and just came and insulted the girl, as if she didn't get enough insults from the people whom she assaulted. I'm not gonna defend that girl; she, among other things, claimed she was gonna commit suicide multiple times, but as I was watching the drama happening I just wondered why people who didn't know her before were going there and insulting her instead of silently reporting her. But violence was simply making violence, only with words (and really creepy Youtube videos, but that's another story).
To top it off, now that her account has been suspended, I even saw comments like "let's RP about characters beating her"; it became very close to cyberbullying.

2 days ago I was also reported a case of a student I'm teaching biology to, who was bullied by other children for years, mostly verbally; one of the too many children who suffer from being bullied. She told it to the whole class (and to her bullies) and finally, they seemed to realise what they were doing.

Verbal violence is everywhere nowadays. From deviantART drama to people insulting each other in games, or teens bullying each other, I can't help but seeing it everywhere and I think about how it can destroy the victims of such violence. The worst is that people, who are mostly teens, don't measure the consequences words can have on someone and how it can shape their personality. I can't help but think they don't care about it, since it's just words anyways. But while oral words can fade away, written words on the internet stay. It just seems to me that people (teens especially) don't realise the violence words can carry, because it's not physical. In fact, it is probably aggravated by the fact they are free to speak safely in front of their computer or phone, while not having to confront the other person.

I'm not even sure why I'm making this post, but feel free to share your thoughts about this topic, I'll be glad to read them. I'd honestly like to be proven wrong about this :P also it could even help me educate children about this, since I'm very concerned about it.


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Re: The violence of words

Postby lambnut on Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:15 am

Hope you as a teacher can make a difference :D
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Ama_ on Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:12 am

I'm not sure I can honestly. Sadly an isolated teacher can't do much against mass phenomena. I guess all I can do is remind them that words aren't harmless, even though I'm not even sure teens can realise it unless it would strike them in the face. And as I said the ways of communications used nowadays kind of reinforce all of this, because it is so much easier to be harassing someone verbally when you are comfy at home and don't have to face the person you are harassing.


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Re: The violence of words

Postby Binerexis on Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:54 am

It's not reinforced at all when all those forms of communication have a block feature.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Ama_ on Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:17 pm

While this is true, I'm not sure the block feature is used very often and even if it is, if you want to block offensive comments on deviantART let's say, you have to see them. Besides some children don't seem to be aware it exists and instead of using it they would just reply back, feeding the verbal violence instead of letting it go away.


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Re: The violence of words

Postby Deathtaker27 on Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:56 pm

Trust me on one thing here, one person can make a huge difference.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Binerexis on Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:25 pm

Block buttons are pretty big and noticeable. Even if they're not, a search of how to block someone on a website will yield results. If someone gets a nasty message and they perpetuate further messages, they'll be learning their lesson the hard way (potentially). I'm showing my age a little here but when I was a kid and on a website where people were dicks or saying things I didn't like, I'd leave. There was nothing forcing me to be there.


I also disagree with your bigger point of 'violence with words'. Verbal abuse isn't violence. It may not be nice but it's not violence. I also disagree with the whole notion of 'cyberbullying' considering all the stuff in place to block people you don't want to hear from and delete messages you don't like. It's not like being bullied 'in the real world' where it's difficult to ignore what's going on and it's not like you get forced to read abusive messages. In fact, considering how bullying in the real world often involves actual violence, I think your comparing verbal abuse to violence downplays just how serious bullying can be.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Ama_ on Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:09 pm

The term "bullying" was probably poorly chosen by me due to my lack of English vocabulary and maybe excessive which I'm sorry for, but verbal harassment (at least) and cyber harassment are real things that should, in my opinion, be taken as seriously as any act of physical violence.

When you say "go die" to someone, more than not being nice, it is violence towards that person. Sure there is no physical act, but

some English dictionary wrote:violence, n:
1 the exercise or an instance of physical force, usually effecting or intended to effect injuries, destruction, etc.
2 powerful, untamed, or devastating force
[...]
3 great strength of feeling, as in language, etc.; fervour


According to this definition, when you say "go die", you are using a form of violence. When you are verbally encouraging hatred towards someone, on a social network for example, it encourages a form of violence because of the use of strong language.

Abusing verbally someone can result in the victim being traumatised and causing serious damage, starting with loss of selfconfidence. I personally don't think it's minor at all.

Cyber harassment is a fact and it is referred to as cyberbullying. Some people, teenagers especially, commited suicide after being harassed. Anonymous hate on the internet is a form of cyberharassment and I've seen more than I would have liked of it. Sure, I'd leave just as you would, but not all people do and it can do serious damage to vulnerable people as well.

Besides, I think cyberharassment and harassment should not be taken separately and it is likely one could be related to the other; a possible case being that a victim of harassment could be harassed at school for example, but also on the internet.

I don't think there is a "learning the hard way". It would imply people, teenagers especially, can be detached from what their peers think about them, and it is often not the case.


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Re: The violence of words

Postby Binerexis on Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:30 pm

Cyber harassment and cyber bullying just don't register as terms for me as there are terms that already exist for them: harassment and bullying. Where it takes place doesn't matter, it still happens but online people can take an active step into not being subject to it by blocking people who are harassing you (they can't harass you if they can't contact you) or not going on the website or service where you're being harassed or bullied (they can't harass or bully you if you're not there). I am yet to see a service or website which has interaction with other people where it's impossible to not go on that site or impossible to block communication with them.

Whilst there are many cases cited in the news of teenagers killing themselves due to being harassed online, it's never the only factor. For the sake of argument, let's say that it was the only factor which then begs the question of why they didn't block the people harassing them, why they kept going back to those sites and why they kept looking at things sent by people who they know are abusive. It just doesn't make any sense.

To say that saying certain things encourage an act of violence towards someone is ridiculous unless the things being said incite an act of violence. Tell someone to "go die" does not encourage them to die nor does it encourage people to kill them. If saying "go die" encourages someone to die then why do we still have so many bad people in the world despite everyone at some point in their lives being told "be a good person"?

There is a hard way to learn that you can block/ignore people online and that's to continually fan the flames rather than blocking them and stepping away from the situation. I think to say that teenagers and people in generally can't detach themselves from what their peers think of them is to not give teenagers or people in general any credit whatsoever. For example, when I was a teenager, many of my peers in school didn't like me but those peers weren't my friends so I didn't care about what they thought. I considered what my friends thought of me to be pretty important until they thought I was a dick because I told them to sod off after trying to break into my house. Did I care? Hell no. Why? Because they acted like a bunch of arseholes and I wanted nothing to do with them. I feel like I'm stating the obvious here but people who harass you and bully you aren't your friends and you need to sort out your priorities if you actually care what they think.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Ama_ on Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:39 pm

Binerexis wrote:[...] Where it takes place doesn't matter, it still happens but online people can take an active step into not being subject to it by blocking people who are harassing you (they can't harass you if they can't contact you) or not going on the website or service where you're being harassed or bullied (they can't harass or bully you if you're not there). I am yet to see a service or website which has interaction with other people where it's impossible to not go on that site or impossible to block communication with them.


I don't see why the victims of such harassment shouldn't use these services for the sake of not being harassed. It's just as if you said that if I didn't want to have a car accident, then I should simply not drive a car. People may want to live with their time and should feel free to use whatever service they want, not have to restrict themselves in order to escape from harassment and bullying.

Binerexis wrote:To say that saying certain things encourage an act of violence towards someone is ridiculous unless the things being said incite an act of violence. Tell someone to "go die" does not encourage them to die nor does it encourage people to kill them. If saying "go die" encourages someone to die then why do we still have so many bad people in the world despite everyone at some point in their lives being told "be a good person"?


My point was rather that the use of strong language is a form of violence, not an act of violence towards someone. It's the same when you say you raped the opposite team in a game. While it doesn't encourage rape (or at least I hope so) I see it as offensive and violent because of the term that is used. To tell someone to go die won't obviously encourage them to actually go die but it cultivates a form of verbal violence. Besides, if you read my very first message again, I mentioned the case of people saying "let's RP about characters beating X"; while it doesn't directly incite an act of violence towards the X person, the simple fact these people roleplayed about beating that person is violent in my opinion.
My point isn't that words incite violence, but they are a form of violence and can be as destructive as an act of physical violence, doing damage that can not always be noticed, especially on teenagers.

Binerexis wrote:There is a hard way to learn that you can block/ignore people online and that's to continually fan the flames rather than blocking them and stepping away from the situation.


While I partially agree, it may be more difficult to do for some people, the ones who are more vulnerable especially.

Binerexis wrote:I think to say that teenagers and people in generally can't detach themselves from what their peers think of them is to not give teenagers or people in general any credit whatsoever.


I firmly disagree with this. I never said, or implied, that *all* teenagers couldn't detach themselves from what their peers think of them. I think I need to add that I am mostly speaking of, let's say, 11-15 years old. It is a fact that many teenagers care about what their peers think of them. If you want an example of it, just look at a school. Here in France, teenagers don't have to wear an uniform to go there, yet they wear the exact same kind of clothes, they have the same way of speaking, they seem to have the same interests even if they don't, etc. The opinion of their peers matters as they want to belong to the same group as them. And if you look at teenagers who aren't caring, there is a possibility they would be looked at, laughed at, or harassed or taken as scapegoats.

Binerexis wrote:For example, when I was a teenager, many of my peers in school didn't like me but those peers weren't my friends so I didn't care about what they thought. I considered what my friends thought of me to be pretty important until they thought I was a dick because I told them to sod off after trying to break into my house. Did I care? Hell no. Why? Because they acted like a bunch of arseholes and I wanted nothing to do with them. I feel like I'm stating the obvious here but people who harass you and bully you aren't your friends and you need to sort out your priorities if you actually care what they think.


Then maybe you were a very mature teenager but I don't think all of them would think or act like you did for the reasons I mentioned above, even though I hope they would actually.


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Re: The violence of words

Postby Little_Devil on Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:48 pm

Ama_ wrote:The term "bullying" was probably poorly chosen by me due to my lack of English vocabulary and maybe excessive which I'm sorry for, but verbal harassment (at least) and cyber harassment are real things that should, in my opinion, be taken as seriously as any act of physical violence.


The term bullying can apply to any medium, be that physical verbal or a combination of any of the multiple ways, that someone can bully.

The girl was probably striking out because in real life she is bullied incessantly in a similar way, and this was just a way she could do the same without the threat of physical violence.

This sort of thing starts early in life, by children in a lot of circumstances, and sadly does not stop until later in life, just getting less with age, although sadly in some cases it just goes on. The internet has just made it more prevalent, and indeed worse, since text on a screen does not have any inflections, and is very obviously a problem, particularly for children at an early age all the way to leaving education.
This is a very basic pack instinct, where a load of dogs gang up on an individual, and you see it all too often.

A lot of people, but children in particular, are extremely silly when it comes to understanding what has been said, and text just makes it worse where they make erroneous assumptions about what someone has said, then act on those assumptions. This of course is where the pack comes in, they then expound those assumptions to their friends (on line as well as off) as factual, and the old Chinese whisper comes into play. This is mainly children since they have no worldly experience to speak of, and as we all know, give someone a little knowledge and they think they know a lot, give someone a lot of knowledge and they think they know it all. Then place them in the real world, and they realise how little they actually do know.

The internet just makes a lot of this a lot worse, and it is the job of adults to teach these sort of people not to make erroneous assumptions in the first place, and be more tolerant to others both in real life, and in particular to the uneducated on the net.

Edit:
The cross country boundaries makes this problem even worse. If you can, for one moment understand that people make erroneous assumptions about what a person says in their own language, how easy is it for someone to make even worse assumptions about someone who does not speak their language, and have also had a different cultural upbringing.

You have to look at the root cause of the bullying, before you even contemplate taking any type of action.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:16 am

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Re: The violence of words

Postby Gh0st.IRE on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:56 pm

Little_Devil wrote:In the UK news today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25639839


This will get seriously out of hand unless governments the world over educate parents on how to monitor their child's internet access. It's also up to parents to raise their own damn children and to stop waiting around for it to be spoon fed to them. Take the little shits phone away from him/her if they're being a bollox online. Simple.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Binerexis on Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:28 pm

Gh0st.IRE wrote:
Little_Devil wrote:In the UK news today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25639839


This will get seriously out of hand unless governments the world over educate parents on how to monitor their child's internet access. It's also up to parents to raise their own damn children and to stop waiting around for it to be spoon fed to them. Take the little shits phone away from him/her if they're being a bollox online. Simple.


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Re: The violence of words

Postby Ama_ on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:45 pm

Gh0st.IRE wrote:
Little_Devil wrote:In the UK news today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25639839


This will get seriously out of hand unless governments the world over educate parents on how to monitor their child's internet access. It's also up to parents to raise their own damn children and to stop waiting around for it to be spoon fed to them. Take the little shits phone away from him/her if they're being a bollox online. Simple.


I kind of agree with the taking phones away part; it is mind boggling how every child has a phone now, while when I was their age I didn't even think about it.
Sometimes the phone gives the parents a feeling of security since they can call or send an sms to know what the child would be doing at a certain time. Also I don't think parents are systematically aware of their children's behaviour. They can act very different when around friends and when around parents. So to put it simply, even if they were perfect parents and had the best child at home, maybe the child could be harassing other people when not around parents. Also even if a child's access to the internet was restrained at home, they could be using it at some other place where it wouldn't be as restricted as much.


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Re: The violence of words

Postby Snowbat on Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:29 am

Ehh I'm gonna go against the flow and disagree with large parts of what you're saying. Well not entirely actually. People are quick to scream bloody murder as soon as words could possibly be seen as being hostile, even if it wasn't the case.
People need to realize the difference between being hostile or hateful, and a joke. I'm not saying that what happened in those examples you gave are just jokes, but I'm just putting it out here: if someone says something that could be percieved as insulting but it's clear he says it jokingly with no intent to be hostile... just learn to not give a damn about it. If people can't take a joke, what the hell will they do the day they encounter a real problem and people that are really hostile to them? Excessive political correctness makes people weaker.

Bullying on the other hand, is different. That's something that should be fought. Bullying is when there is real intent to be hostile and destructive and I agree it's wrong. But when it comes to cyber-bullying on a site like DeviantART and the bullying comes from people you don't even know in real life, have you considered maybe just... you know... leaving the site? Ignoring those people? If some stranger insults you over the internet and says to "go die"... just ignore it. It's the best weapon against this type of online harrasment.
Hell, people have insulted me countless times in L4D2. Ranging from questioning my virginity, my sexuality, telling me about sexual adventures with my mother, insulting my country, calling me a pedophile (because apparently all Belgians are pedophiles), wishing diseases on me... it's coming from some stranger on the internet in a video game... lol like I'm gonna let that make me depressed. What's the worst they can do? Caps lock me to death?

Really, bullying is bad if it's from people you know in real life, but if it's from strangers on the internet, I fail to understand how THAT can make you so depressed.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Little_Devil on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:40 pm

Snowbat wrote: if someone says something that could be percieved as insulting but it's clear he says it jokingly with no intent to be hostile...

Really, bullying is bad if it's from people you know in real life, but if it's from strangers on the internet, I fail to understand how THAT can make you so depressed.


The problem is that in text form, someone can mean something jokingly, but unless they actually type 'joke', then the person could take it any way or form, now add to this that unsocial networks usually have a spattering of people that know each other, mixed in with others that do not, but like sheep will take the majority line, then you can end up with someone getting verbally bullied by a mixture of people who know them, are friends of friends, acquaintances, or even joe blogs who has seen the person but knows nothing, but is one of the sheep. This then transposes back into real life, where someone that the target does not even know, casts insults. There is also the fact that people say things on the internet, that is an opinion of someone rather than factual, but they do not say, "this is my opinion", therefore whatever they say becomes real to anyone who knows the target in rl.

Now we add to this children from different age groups, who neither having the whit or intelligence to know better, read this garbage and repeat it in rl.

Then we have the recipient of this evil crud, who more than likely is a child, although not exclusively, and could be in the throws of adolescence, with hormones already shredding their poor little brains. This is just the added nail in the coffin.

So you cannot isolate people on the internet from people in real life, since the people in real life are pretty dumb and actually reads what someone says on the net as factual, rather than be a discerning individual and question these comments, or just ignore them, which someone with an ounce of brain would.

Lets face it, if you can get people watching TV, then go and hurl insults or objects at the actor who plays the role, what chance does a victim have where the real life/internet boundaries are blurred.
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Re: The violence of words

Postby Matty1886 on Thu May 07, 2015 12:43 pm

A very intriguing post and I certainly sense violence in words, and obviously we all know actions speak louder.
I really enjoyed reading these posts so I feel like giving my two pence worth:-

Kids are complicated and there's no golden ruling, they're all different in strength and weakness and often live by their own rules and social dynamics. Every life has its battles, from physical aggression to flaming arguments. Knowing when to stand your ground and fight for whatever is on stake is equally important to knowing when to alleviate any aspects of fighting, by whatever means, in whatever manner.

Kids need their virtues and humility is a rarity in teenagers, but one of the only ways I'm aware of it being instilled in them is by the form of a take piss. However, when its a mob of take pissers, there's always a yob or two from the dozen who get the take piss twisted, and really should be on the receiving end of it themselves, which is where our witless victim falls into a precarious situation - defend one's supposed integrity or just ghostilize them and see how it measures with the future.

You, nor I or any of us can fight everybody's battles for them, however small or great, but ofcorse you can help... just try not to be a further burden in the process, which by reading your posts, I doubt you would be. Educate them innit. I've known a crazy amount of people who slander their younger selves for things they've said and done. A great philosopher once wrote; to err is human, to forgive; devine. And that's all she wrote, folks.

I feel like a bit of a schlepper having wrote this response like but this is was we call in the fps world as a snap shot.
Slow and steady wins the race!

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