Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

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Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Shuriken on Fri May 02, 2014 1:35 pm

Party politics is shit. We've got the right to vote but we have no right to appropriate representation. What's the point of one without the other?

No idea who to vote for as they're all pathetic candidates/parties with less moral fibre than a cheese grater and not a single independent standing (not that they have any chance, especially with gerrymandering being a massive thing still)

At this point it's looking like napalm and explosives
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Security on Sat May 03, 2014 12:48 am

I know the feeling...
Looking at local politics I am happy we do not have the UK/US system tho as they leave no choice whatsoever if you ask me but still pretty much all of them are not worth voting for.

I also hate the people that say that if you do not agree with any of the current parties then you should go into politics yourself, of course that is the easy answer but most people (including me) are not fit for politics for many reasons and bringing change on your own is pretty much impossible anyway (and the general masses are rather stupid and vote for whatever is popular at the time...).

And looking at the coming EU elections I am highly annoyed by the fact that you have to vote for someone from your own country, it is not democracy when you are not allowed to vote for all candidates! :evil:
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Binerexis on Sat May 03, 2014 8:45 am

It's a problem of power.

The current system in the UK doesn't provide a good amount of representation. I didn't vote for the Conservative Party and thus, feel completely unrepresented in parliament. To compound that problem, my area has always had a Conservative candidate win meaning that my vote literally counts for nothing. There are a number of better systems to make sure people are better represented (such as Proportional Representation) but we're unlikely to ever see that system be implemented in the UK; the MP's would have to vote in favour of a lot of them being out of a job. We came close to a better system once in recent history with the AV system but, surprise surprise, it was met with a lot of party political broadcasts and posted leaflets stating that it's completely flawed and not worth bothering with. Subsequently, it wasn't voted in.

On top of that, Proportional Representation is utilised by our European neighbours, namely Germany and The Netherlands. Whilst I personally think that the system works substantially better in those countries, it's something that turns your typical Joe Everyman away from it. It's different, they use it in Europe and worse, they use it in Germany. Two world wars and one world cup, they're obviously backward-thinking losers, vote UKIP. I think that, until the attitudes of Britain changes, the UK is going to be stuck in the dark ages compared to the rest of Europe.
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Dauntless on Sat May 03, 2014 2:28 pm

Representation = bullshit.
I get a card through my door so why do I think "what am I voting for" or "is this one mandatory?". That is because not only is representation utter bullshit, there is nothing to tell me that a vote is coming up. nothing to tell me who the hell are the candidates and what they stand for. The only people that say "you have no right to moan if you don't vote" are people that are degenerate retards and don't know anything about this crap heap we call a country.

Am I bitter.. somewhat but the whole political system sucks donkey tail! I work too damn hard to be heavily taxed so that so many can take the piss all because politics allows it.

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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Binerexis on Sat May 03, 2014 3:05 pm

Dauntless wrote:there is nothing to tell me that a vote is coming up. nothing to tell me who the hell are the candidates and what they stand for.


Internet :P
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Silkie on Sun May 04, 2014 11:07 pm

Fed up with all the candidates? Spoil the ballet paper properly as they get counted. Either that or find a small party you can get behind and ask them if they would consider putting up a candidate. The real problem is if you want to really do something a vote isn't enough to take part. You need to get out and volunteer but don't expect it to change overnight as that is frankly childish. Smaller parties policies can go on to become ones all parties end up adopting or at least having a stand on if enough people back them. I remember when the Green party were considered a fringe group hardly taken seriously by the big three now which one of them doesn't have a stand on environmental issues.

Trivia. Did you know that the Monster raving loony party included some policies that went on to become UK law?
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Security on Mon May 05, 2014 12:17 am

Binerexis wrote:
Dauntless wrote:there is nothing to tell me that a vote is coming up. nothing to tell me who the hell are the candidates and what they stand for.


Internet :P

When you do that make sure to also look back on what they said in the past and what they actually did, there are some rather large differences between those two. :P
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Little_Devil on Sat May 17, 2014 4:07 pm

What it really needs is a lot of people to join a party and change it from within, and kick all these public school boy mentality yobs out.

If you look at parliament these days, it really does not represent the people of the nation.

tbh we no longer have a choice, and the only choice people do have is from right-mid to right wing politics. Conservative, Labour, then Lib/dem, slot other parties in between with a sprinkle of others to the left.

We have the usual Conservative party, that stuff their own pockets first, then make sure all their rich buddies get a big slice of the pie, then work down from that point.
Next comes Labour a party brought in to represent the common workforce of this country, but now stuffed to the gills with the same louts that frequent the Conservative party, and pretty mush the same principles, although some have lately seen the mood of the British populace and are changing their stance, blow in the wind politics.
Lastly we have LibDem, they change for anyone who is willing to make a deal and they have also shifted to the right as well.

These parties have all gone down the Yank route of showmanship and vote grabbing, along with taking the general public to be complete morons who will believe any old rubbish, as long as it makes them feel better.

The worst thing of all, is that it works, this country is full of morons that swallow party politics and their stories hook line and sinker.

It is not good enough to say everyone must be working, a country has to be a producer, and the only thing UK politics has gone in for in a massive way, since Maggie Thatcher, is the financial sector. Well that really worked out well didn't it, and everyone knew that relying on any financial sector will lead to boom and bust economy, and yet we still have all these parties leading the lambs of this country around. It really is sad, and you can see why people have no faith in politicians any more.

The only people that get to tighten their belts in this type of politics is the poor (worst hit) to aspiring middle classes, the rich stay fat and healthy and keep paying themselves very well.
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Ritual_Suicide on Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:19 pm

Hmmm, even though its an older topic, i would like to add something :D


Corruption in politics will always be a primary problem.
Even though these days many people feel that it is under " control ".

Most European countries have loads of safeguards against corruption in place:

-Checking accounts during ones term in office
-Limiting other functions outside office
-Limiting indirect involvements such as investments/ shareholders / commissionaire functions during office

But after office there is no safeguard , since they are no longer bound by these rules.
Many politicians end up being an paid adviser or commissionaire after office.

Many would argue that they are intelligent people and just found a job, however if you look into the policies applied during office......
Here in Holland we have several examples of tax exemptions, turning an blind eye for investment firms who invested in landmines, shipping companies under dutch flag
who have been caught shipping arms to the middle-east....

Later after office these politicians ended up as advisers and made good money, without ever going to work .......

So if you wonder who controls politics, its not the politicians :).
The real power lies with the wealthy companies and large investment groups.

Imagine if a company like Microsoft/Unilever/Phillips/United Arms no longer wants to pay tax?
Or if they choose to ignore labor laws....
If they do not allow these things, the company moves its interests abroad, destroying currency value/mass unemployment/ending current investments (not to mention no more bribes).

In Holland we had it with Unilever, up to 3 times the government had to give in.
And these are only the known situations, there are far more examples to find if you look hard.

Basically, the mega-firms make policies by simply demanding them.
So all we as normal people have, is still bread and games.
(Jullius Cesar: " Give the people bread and games " )

So no matter who you vote for, the main lines, like going to war/tax regulation/approved medicine/peoples right to privacy/telecom laws
are not going to be controlled by the people. (with the exception if the vast majority uncovers the plot/situation and threatens the profit of the company)

If you put new people in such a system (like flushing politics with new people), within a short time the system will restore itself.
Since for decades the system has been corrupted, so when one needs to function in a system where all senior officials(not chosen ones) are corrupt,
one will never be able to change something without support of the corrupt officials.
(senior officials often hold more effective power than the chosen counterparts since they do not serve a term and therefore can block any change until the end of ones term)


So to make the point :)
Choose your flavor of poison, it doesn't matter that much.
In the end only the details will change, and the main lines will be the same (with the exception of Far Left wing parties, they just bankrupt a country ^_^ )


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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Binerexis on Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:05 pm

Holy necro, batman...
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Little_Devil on Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:29 am

@ Ritual_Suicide

Well said, and the UK is no different. Big businesses pull the strings until vast public opinion turns against them, so media plays a big part as well, brain washing the gullible.

A petition I signed the other day reads as follows :

Many MPs are making money for themselves by selling-off our National Health Service to private companies.

Privatisation means that public funds are used to pay for private sector provision of NHS services. This means taxpayers’ money is going into the profits of companies and their shareholders instead of into patient care.

The Department of Health’s annual accounts for 2013-14 showed £10bn-worth of NHS business went to other providers. It’s rising by about £1bn every year and needs to be stopped. If MPs are banned from having investments in these companies, they will be less supportive of further privatisation, and maybe the NHS can be saved.
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Ritual_Suicide on Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:16 am

An small example video about this thing (long but worth it)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3LUD53q_Pg


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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Flare on Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:03 pm

Isn't it for this very reason anti monopoly systems are suppose to be in place to ensure a healthy competitive market and that no one single mega corporation exists that can lever such amounts of influence ?
So that if one large company sulks and threatens to take away its ball, there will be a competitor eagerly awaiting to jump in its place ?

I rarely bother with politics, no matter who you vote for... you end up with a liar who psychologically and pathologically cannot simply tell anyone the whole truth, cant simply answer any question without dodging or hedging... i.e. a politician.
For example... last election I voted for Cameron, he promised a EU referendum even if as he says it wouldn't influence the countries status in the EU, and no such referendum, except now the new election is looming upon us and yet again he makes noises about referendums.
The politicians know the populace wants such a referendum, and they fear the result would be in favour of the UK leaving which would put paid to many of their benefits and EU handouts (EU hasn't been able to balance its books since inception due to corruption).

In brief there is no 'real' choice, you merely get to select the 'face' of the country but the reality is that even in a democracy the power of the people is an illusion fostered to pacify the masses... we are controlled via guile whereas dictators use fear, that is the key difference.
Sometimes keeping an eye on your stats is not a good thing :P

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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Ritual_Suicide on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:53 pm

Well to be fair, the anti-monopoly system is only effective against the companies taking over the whole market.
However, shareholders are not limited in any way.
This means that mr. X (figure of speech) can own 40+% of lets say 3 out of 5 mega companies.

So with the majority of shares in his hands (either direct or indirect) mr. X still controls the global market....
And through that position more is achievable, such things happen. Real life examples are the Rothschild family.

Some shocking details about this particular family:

-Family was involved in mass castration/sterilization projects in US(estimated 1930's)/Nazi Germany(1934-1942)/Russia (during Stalin's reign)
-Holds vast shares of almost all major companies
-Owns the world bank
-Owns the "federal reserve" (America's private bank controlling the US dollar)
-Has an estimated worth of $490.000.000.000.000.000,- (this is roughly 40-50% of the money in circulation world wide)
-Has been known to willingly bankrupt whole countries
-On many occasions indirectly influences politics
-Finances most of the ongoing conflicts in the world area's with OIL and GAS

Some say he is forming/has formed a new world order, others seem to fear he will become the first financial dictator of the world.
I do not have ample information on these details, but it is an unhealthy situation if you have 1 family with the power to buy most of the known world.

As for the part about current governments:

-All systems work through fear
-In our democracy's we receive a small benefit for compliance
-Most crimes and problems are judged by a more or less objective party
-There is a forced social system in place just like in an dictatorship, to keep "peace"
-Money is the primary means to the end, this is not always true for a dictatorship
-People have more input for smaller laws then in a dictatorship
-Freedom of speech is still possible in some democracy's , however America lost this 4 years back. England and the Netherlands are losing it as we speak.
(as both England and the Netherlands are currently preparing multiple legislation, for homeland security, enabling more invasive measures to privacy, that also open doors to oppression)


How do they get us all to agree to STUPID LAWS, THAT STEAL FROM US ? :

The system used is an old one. First they will instill a state of fear in the masses.
A nice example was the (alleged) Terrorist attack on the WTC and in Barcelona.
Shortly after this happened, the Terrorists where engaged in guerrilla warfare with most of the western world.
This provoked them to send out threats to most know allies.

After receiving those threats, we were spammed by the movies , clips and images of impending doom and destruction.
Then many terrorists and sympathizers where arrested in the western world.
(this had to go somewhere ...... do you see this coming ? )

The Echelon project (US/CIA project) , that was already monitoring all our data, was not yet updated but readily listening.

Soon our European parliament/Ministers started to work on legal solutions to ensure our safety.
The people supported them, thinking it would keep them safe and happy.
Due to this some of the most harsh and dangerous laws where passed, things we would have never allowed if we were not first scared.

Some examples:

-The Echelon project was renamed and updated to multiple locations , with antenna array's all over Europe, and internet data logging stations on multiple sites.

-Approval was given to store all phone traffic for 6 months, this is all telephone data.

-Approval was given to store all internet traffic for 6 months (though the provider only has to save 2 months)

-CCTV camera's where updated with facial recognition software (greatly impeding privacy, since they can track you every where)

-All banking data is now saved, and can be requested by governments, amounts exceeding a certain cash amount are automatically "Red Flagged"
(so its no longer your business what you do with your money)

-Terrorists/ suspected terrorists are now allowed to be detained indefinitely (and in the US even without trial, and some others are passing similar legislation)

-All people who board transports to north/middle America are reported by the airline (Yes if you go to Mexico, then England and the US get a file about you, and store it)

-All passports where updated to have Biometrics on them , they say to prevent illegal ones being made (strange that the plans where made 7 months after the biometrics introduction in CCTV surveillance)

- In England, US , The Netherlands, Germany, and some pieces of France, the road "safety" camera's are now linked to the registry, and have number plate recognition, in theory and practice able to match cars with drivers. They say this was done to find criminals and people who do not pay road tax. (so why not only log / look for those license plates , but all? )

-Active supporters of certain human rights organizations/political parties , are now actually being logged in a central data base. (the US is further along, and also logs affiliates, matches them with all online traffic from their address and saves all in a digital case file and risk analysis)


All those rules where allowed by us/not really apposed , because we thought a few terrorists would be worse !?
Come to think of it..... are they?
Is it maybe ending up in a different form of dictatorship?
Or is it likely i am over concerned with my privacy getting diminished to the point of no return?

Also don't forget that in the US there are now test cases with RF chips for "Obama care" and a few big Banks.
Claiming it is safer to carry your money / personal identification and medical data on you in a chip.
Sure , you cant lose it, and it wont be easily stolen.

But at the same time, such an chip can be read from no more than 70 meters with an medium powered antenna.
So we are pretty safe, should we live in a bunker....... Imagine for a moment , that you for some reason are walking to the store, and they would happen to install such functions on the
same communications masts as the current G2/G3 phone array's?

In theory, they would know how healthy you are, the amount of money you have, who you are and to finish it off they would be able to track you all day long.
Now that might feel safe, since if something happens, you know they also know.

But what if you for some reason are protesting against the government, and they just so happen to ERASE all data on the chip......
How much problems would you have then ? And if they refuse to reset is...... then you simply seize to exist.
Or if they want to arrest you ? They will know where you are , all day and night. Cool for catching a real criminal, but it can be used for other things.

Now the US is by default the starting/testing grounds for the most invasive measures we have seen so far.....
If they can sell it to their population, then we are next.
And as long as they can scare the masses into this , sweet talking about the positives and twisting around the negatives.... they can.....

So as you can see above, these things passed because of the fear we had of Terrorists....
Imagine what they could do if there would be a full scale ware between ISIS and the west..... would we pass on our freedom as well then ?

:idea: Please do not take my word for any of this, and research it before you post :idea:

The name of the game is FEAR :wink:
Easy 3 step system proven by multiple trials:

-Make them AFRAID
-Give them a COMMON ENEMY
-offer them a SOLUTION

(seems familiar right ? , yup think of NAPOLEON/HITLER/STALIN/KIM JON IL/MAO)


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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:02 am

I did read at one point that the US federal reserve is just another arm of the Bank of England, and in turn the BoE is run by a select few, however these are just conspiracy theories, and I would expect that the people who run these institutions talk to others at the same level. After all, why would the head of the B of E need to speak to bob the builder about high finance.

Take the Bilderberg Group, an annual meeting between a group of people that have the power to change the course of events in history, often touted as a steering committee that has very shady and nefarious dealings, but are more than likely meetings that will oil the wheels of industry and Government in the UK and US.

Conspiracies spring up from people wanting to know something from one group, when that group cannot say anything, in case they destabilise the market. As we all know, management investors are the jumpiest lot around, omg a bee stung me when I was looking at company x stocks, it a bad omen, sell sell sell. Maybe not so bad, but these people are the ones that drive the market one way or another, just out of constant fear. Imagine world leaders and industrialists, openly speaking of their proposed plans for the coming year, the market would have a conglomerative heart attack. :P

It is pointless to tie many disparate events together and try and make it a conspiracy. Events can and do occur because of communication or lack of it, can lead many different people doing similar things, that if looked at in a certain way can look like a conspiracy.

Governments have different departments, and the bigger the Government is, the more gets swept under the carpet, as in senior managers not being told the whole truth. However upon being found out, these same managers will try to cover up facts, because it makes them look bad. It really is a case of its the other persons fault, simply because there is a prevalence for no one daring to admit that a small mistake is made, as the system over compensates by making any person a scape-goat in the most extreme way.

It is either mankind's fault that we have a world wide intolerance of small mistakes, or it is by design to keep the masses in line, and focusing peoples minds on a blame culture, that ignores the biggest deceptions, by focusing everyone on the smaller matters.

The UK has been one of the leaders in a police state for many years envied by the world, with the media in the pockets/governed by politics and politicians who drum up support against minority groups, whilst hiding the real facts that they are sticking it to those same supporters, whilst there attention is diverted elsewhere.
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby re# Skilgannon on Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:23 pm

nothing is ever going to change if people sit on their arses and whinge

you want to change things?

Get out there and change it then!
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Security on Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:58 pm

There area couple of limitations for the "normal" person when it comes to "Get out there and change it", looking at myself for example:
  • I am no leader, so I won't be the first to pick up the banner and show people the way.
  • I still need to survive in the current structure as long as it is in place, which means I don't have the time I need to change the system.
  • I am part of a minority so the above items make it even harder to accomplish my wishes.

I know I am part of the problem but at the same time I don't feel like I have a option to actually change the situation without offering up more then I am prepared too (the future of not just myself but also my brother is not something I am willing to trade currently for my ideals which won't even be accepted by society in it's current state).
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Binerexis on Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:01 pm

Depending on the kind of representation provided in your country, those who want change may actually be in the majority rather than the minority.

Being a follower is just as important as being a leader. If there's a political movement that you agree with, become a member and start working with them. Trust me, movements always need more people joining in.

Usually when there's a meeting or a demonstration or whatever for a movement, it's arranged pretty far in advance. Most of the time, they need to do other things as well so they arrange things for the evenings or on weekends.
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Binerexis on Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:01 pm

Double post somehow. No idea how that happened.
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Re: Vote for who? No choice in a democracy

Postby Ritual_Suicide on Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:57 pm

@Little Devil:

It does not have to be a conspiracy in order for it to be bad 8)
Either way, you are setting the stage for very unhealthy things.
You can create monsters when only a small elite ends up with all the power.
At the same time a little monster can create that a small elite ends up with all the power if the system is not safe/good enough.

So either way, it ends up almost the same. Only when one sees it , how can one act.
Now there lies the actual question i would like to propose.


@the rest :)

Well the get out and change it then , mentality is not prevalent in most of the society.
Since the burden is not yet too hard to bear.

Also many people who are better situated (in monetary terms), are reluctant to take action or even support a movement that could potentially harm they're interests.....

So the common folks, who have a sharp mind (the minority within the system) tend to try and protest.
But a larger portion of them will not protest if it could bring harm to them.....

Even ancient Greek Philosophers described such situations, and logically most people will not try to change it until it is to much to handle/live in. As well know that it is usually not the best timing to do that when it is already "too" late.

But all across history both modern and old, activists have been labeled terrorist/anarchist/evil/criminal.
Often leading to things as torture/demonizing the whole family/imprisonment/disappearance/or execution.
So it is not strange that there are few waiting to be the next in line of the long list.

Many have even been written down as cowards in the history books, or played down.
After all , the victor writes the damn history books....

So when one wants to act, he/she will need :
-the funding (which is the most delicate part, since many parties you protest against are banks)
-support of the public
-you will need to establish an network without using any telecom connections
-safe houses
-equipment and manpower

And then we are not even talking about any militant actions, just peaceful resistance.
Any armed opposition would require far more means and will be harder to mount when you consider the trained personnel you will also need.

Hope it sort of answers the why don't you.....

Then again , it would be nice to just have a group meeting to talk about current events with other critical minds.


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