Thinking about an upgrade

Discussions about all aspects of technology, what you're doing with it and exchange of ideas and solutions to problems you might be having.

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Silkie on Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:55 am

Christmas is the only time I get to do upgrades really but I have multiple computers so there's little risk if anything goes wrong. I need to sell off some of my store of spares as together they should add up to enough to boost my funds for the upgrade.
"I prefer the company of animals more than the company of humans.
Certainly, a wild animal is cruel.
But to be merciless is the privilege of civilised humans."
User avatar
Silkie
Experienced Member
 
Player: Silkie
STEAM_0:0:523712
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: Somewhere Strange



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Kaelan002 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:22 pm

Little_Devil wrote:
Kaelan002 wrote:By that argument, buy a proper SSD and set that as cache. No point replacing a perfectly good HDD to gain a meager 8GB of flash.

Clearly you are mistaking the principles behind the SSHD memory and cache memory, which all drives have including SSD and SSHD.


"set that as a cache drive"* :roll: The 32/64MB of on drive "Cache memory", aka a drive^ disk buffer, is nothing to do with it.

Hmm, so you have a cached SSD acting as cache to a HDD without any software algorithms to make sure it all works efficiently. That would certainly be a sight to see.


It's called the Intel Rapid Storage driver. Or if you want a software solution, there's Nvelo's dataplex.

^Edit: bad phone autocorrect.
Last edited by Kaelan002 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There are 10 types of people in the world: those that know binary, those that don't, and those that didn't expect this joke to be in base 3.

[video =373,150]http://a.pomf.se/ixefrf.webm[/video] Now shhhh Kaelan... OOOOOOH
pomf.se is ded. :'(
User avatar
Kaelan002
UKCS Sponsor
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Kae
STEAM_0:1:29878923
 
Posts: 2166
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:28 pm
Location: The restaurant at the end of the universe



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Little_Devil on Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:29 pm

Which SFF do you have, sorry if you said and I missed it ?

What sized board do you have in at present ?

With most small enclosures heat becomes a problem, so I would suggest also looking at quiet cooling as another priority, be that partial or full blown liquid cooling, of which I have little experience. On the other hand fan design has slowly got better over the years and my add on GPU fan is fairly quiet and is completely drowned out by the noisy PSU fan, soon to be changed :)

Kaelan002 wrote:
Little_Devil wrote:
Kaelan002 wrote:
"set that as a cache drive"* :roll: The 32/64MB of on drive "Cache memory", aka a drive buffer, is nothing to do with it.

It's called the Intel Rapid Storage driver. Or if you want a software solution, there's Nvelo's dataplex.


Cache memory is not just used as a buffer, otherwise you would call it buffer memory :roll: .

If you want to use Intel AHCI/RAID software go ahead, it does not do the same job as the firmware on an SSHD, however thanks for the Nvelo mention as that does do the job correctly, that's one I had not come across, and it is also limited to certain drives so not really a generalised solution. I would imagine it would be very expensive to put in a home system when you really don't need to do so when on a budget.
http://www.nvelo.com/support/dataplex

It is all very well suggesting expensive solutions to someone creating a new build, but not very practical when it comes to terms of building a system that works well without going to expensive lengths. £50 (£100 if you forget the drive :) )saved on buying an SSD that is not needed, can be well spent on other items that would give more benefit.
I suggested SSHD because it is half the price and 4 times bigger than an SSD with little real time noticeable difference in speed when compared against the cheaper SSD. Just because an SSD is cheap and all you have had to compare against is a 7200 spin platter, does not mean it is good. However as I said, it is not normally a priority when I come to build something.
Little_Devil
Exec. Admin (Retired)
 
Player: Aurora
STEAM_0:1:6431437
 
Posts: 18895
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:47 pm

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Security on Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:37 pm

Does any other company besides Seagate make SSHD's? I never considered getting the hybrid solution especially from Seagate which from personal experience makes the quickest failing HDD's out there since they bought Maxtor (which is why I would never recommend anyone to buy Seagate).

Edit: Looking at this (year old) comparison of SSHD's vs SSD's and HDD's I can't say I am that impressed by the SSHD's.
Image
User avatar
Security
Experienced Member
Honorary UKCS Member
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Security
STEAM_0:0:8446840
 
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:03 pm
Location: In the dishwasher.

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Little_Devil on Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:58 pm

tbqh I don't go by such reviews,
Its like comparing a formula 1 car with a Ferrari Sports Car and saying the formula one car is faster, duh it also cost a hell of a lot more.

Lets see a test of like for like drives based on price rather pie in the sky general comparisons.

btw Toshiba also do SSHD https://storage.toshiba.eu/cms/en/hdd/s ... id_drives/
These are better than the Seagate drives in speed and reliability.

Anyhow, this is all off topic and sorry for that Silkie, I only meant to be helpful based on cost constraints with relative speed comparison to that of standard HDD's when I suggested the SSHD.
Little_Devil
Exec. Admin (Retired)
 
Player: Aurora
STEAM_0:1:6431437
 
Posts: 18895
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:47 pm

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Security on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:14 am

Actually that review is very detailed and compares all kinds of drives, there performance in tons of situations and then makes a summary of the price and performance points on different scales. Next time please at least read the last 2 pages with the conclusions at least. :P
I don't post something I haven't read fully and without it having some actual useful data (as in there is a good reason I posted that "review" over the many others out there), discussions like this are about facts first andy you raised a fair point about SSHD's I hadn't even considered at the time.
Image
User avatar
Security
Experienced Member
Honorary UKCS Member
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Security
STEAM_0:0:8446840
 
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:03 pm
Location: In the dishwasher.

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Little_Devil on Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:10 am

I tend to get bored with such reviews as they always waffle on about the least important matters first, and eventually come to a price list, rather than be honest and include the prices alongside the data gathered at the start.

Data is only valuable when comparing like for like, which SSD's are clearly not, unless they want to include all the other types of storage that is available, as in NVRAM devices, which of course leave SSD's standing still, by comparison. NVRAM is also used in high speed cache, to improve performance of some drives, so why not include that in a comparison.

I have a number of different drives which include Intel SSD, SSHD, high, mid and low spin rate drives, so have no real axe to grind when it comes to a particular sort of drive. I can positively state that apart from the 10K spin rate drive the SSHD is faster than any of the other drives, and even faster than the 10K drive with certain types of data. Not bad to say it has a lower spin rate. As I said, you need to find comparison data which has like for like and includes all drives that have a spinning disk, including more than just Seagate, rather than to try to push sales of SSD's.
Little_Devil
Exec. Admin (Retired)
 
Player: Aurora
STEAM_0:1:6431437
 
Posts: 18895
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:47 pm

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Security on Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:38 am

Little_Devil wrote:Data is only valuable when comparing like for like

I disagree, yes in your comparison you need to consider all the aspects but if you want a 1 on 1 comparison you cannot compare a HDD vs a SSHD or SSD in any form... Yes they all have there purposes but the most average case here is the most important one to consider.

It is a long and for most uninteresting read, but if you want to make a good assumption these tests are actually very interesting and the most important question is if you actually notice it when using the product.
Hence why I went with a SSD that has power outage protection over pure performance personaly... The SSHD is born in that very category, to make a (affordable) difference compared to SSD's.

The fact that HDD's with higher data density outperform the SSHD's is a bad omen in most cases, the fact that SSD's outperform it in every case is a given.
Looking at the conclusion where they found that a HDD and SSD combination was only 10 pounds more expensive then the SSHD solution is a important one I would say as in the end the HDD and SSD combination gives you more bang for buck overall.
Image
User avatar
Security
Experienced Member
Honorary UKCS Member
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Security
STEAM_0:0:8446840
 
Posts: 1900
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:03 pm
Location: In the dishwasher.

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Little_Devil on Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:01 am

Security wrote:The fact that HDD's with higher data density outperform the SSHD's is a bad omen in most cases, the fact that SSD's outperform it in every case is a given.
Looking at the conclusion where they found that a HDD and SSD combination was only 10 pounds more expensive then the SSHD solution is a important one I would say as in the end the HDD and SSD combination gives you more bang for buck overall.


That makes no sense at all, given that an SSHD is an SSD coupled with a HDD. The HDD do not out perform the SSHD's at all, no idea why you would think that ? I think the only time the SHDD fails is on small file transfers of 4KB but are a lot faster than most with transfers of 1MB. However how can you have an SSHD shown as being equivalent to a Raptor on read and write speeds and then you say all HDD's outperform the SHDD. That data is confusing because they have not marked all SSHD drives on the charts as SSHD, despite the obvious fact they are.

As far as a separate SSD & HDD combination being only £10 more expensive than an SSHD, that is complete rubbish since HDD and SHDD prices are comparable with like for like drives as shown in my previous post, so they are saying an SSD costs £10 ?
Pairing separate solid-state and mechanical drives is more expensive than getting an SSHD, but not by as much as you might expect. Seagate's Barracuda 2TB hard drive is priced at $100 right now, and you can add a 32GB SSD for less than $50 more. You'll want caching software or an SRT-compatible platform to manage that relationship, but the drives ring in at only $10 more than the $140 asking price attached to the Desktop SSHD.

A year ago the SSHDD was far more expensive ? Given that you can get a 4TB SSHDD for £141 now and with the price changes the price discrepancy of the combination has increased.

I think your conclusions are biased, given the closing statement on that review.

Seagate's desktop hybrid has some appeal for instances where a dual-drive setup isn't possible or affordable. It's a solid entry-level desktop offering best suited to basic systems that want to add a little pep to a lot of storage with minimal hassle.

However the review is complete nonsense given that they are only making old tests on a platform which is geared for the average computer user usage rather than raw data testing.
Testing a drive that is made with a certain type of usage in mind with constantly changing raw data, is a really bad test and just shows a complete lack of understanding of the drive design and day to day usage. But I guess that is because people are poorly educated and not used to change, still trying to test things where there is no common ground. I mean what relevance does horse power really have with an engine, it took them many years to do away with that measure, although some still use it. :roll:

A fairer test would be to remove the 8GB from the drive platter, then do a read write test to that in isolation. The intended use of the SSD portion was to have regularly used data in SSD, and data which is not used regularly on the platters, which is why you get faster boot times with an SSHD after its initial install or update boot.
Little_Devil
Exec. Admin (Retired)
 
Player: Aurora
STEAM_0:1:6431437
 
Posts: 18895
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:47 pm

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Shuriken on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:09 am

In terms of longevity you want an SSD.

http://techreport.com/review/27436/the- ... -petabytes
This is my sandvich. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. My sandvich is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my sandvich is useless. Without my sandvich, I am useless. I must eat my sandvich true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before lunch I swear this creed: my sandvich and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but sandvich. Om nom.

Image
Image
User avatar
Shuriken
Old Timer
 
Player: `_´ HaemoGobliN `_´
STEAM_0:1:5456922
 
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:43 am
Location: I'm on a boat



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Little_Devil on Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:12 am

I agree, without reservation. This is why you pay more money for SSD, speed and longevity as you say.
Little_Devil
Exec. Admin (Retired)
 
Player: Aurora
STEAM_0:1:6431437
 
Posts: 18895
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:47 pm

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Binerexis on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:51 am

I can verify that the speed of an SSD is truly amazing; the SSD machine I have here boots up in five seconds.
"Everyone just shut up and enjoy your arena."
"...But we don't enjoy aren-"
"SHUT UP AND ENJOY YOUR ARENA!"
Image
Part three of my quest to lose my sanity

"Bin would get my Unusual hatz since he's the coolest, bravest, smartest and toughest admin." - Bruce Willis
User avatar
Binerexis
Old Timer
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Extrodisian
STEAM_0:0:19678834
 
Posts: 5282
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: The North



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby coldandtired on Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:13 pm

For anyone else who has an Evo 840 it apparently had a problem which is now apparently fixed. I'll be flashing mine later tonight.
Image
User avatar
coldandtired
UKCS Admin
 
Player: coldandtired
STEAM_0:0:27915503
 
Posts: 3503
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:40 pm
Location: 18th Century Europe



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Kaelan002 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:25 pm

I've done a couple, can confirm it works fine
There are 10 types of people in the world: those that know binary, those that don't, and those that didn't expect this joke to be in base 3.

[video =373,150]http://a.pomf.se/ixefrf.webm[/video] Now shhhh Kaelan... OOOOOOH
pomf.se is ded. :'(
User avatar
Kaelan002
UKCS Sponsor
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Kae
STEAM_0:1:29878923
 
Posts: 2166
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:28 pm
Location: The restaurant at the end of the universe



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Silkie on Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:15 am

I think you've talked me into the 250gb drive especially as they have dropped in price and a deal on an EVGA NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760 2GB SC Edition Card.
"I prefer the company of animals more than the company of humans.
Certainly, a wild animal is cruel.
But to be merciless is the privilege of civilised humans."
User avatar
Silkie
Experienced Member
 
Player: Silkie
STEAM_0:0:523712
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: Somewhere Strange



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Silkie on Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:49 pm

Went for it so now I wait and hopefully in a week or so back to playing Team Fortress 2 etc. Thanks for all the advice people I owe you high five. :D
"I prefer the company of animals more than the company of humans.
Certainly, a wild animal is cruel.
But to be merciless is the privilege of civilised humans."
User avatar
Silkie
Experienced Member
 
Player: Silkie
STEAM_0:0:523712
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: Somewhere Strange



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby coldandtired on Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:31 pm

\o/

If the SSD is going to be your only drive (or possibly even if it isn't) make sure you set your BIOS to AHCI mode before you install Windows.
Image
User avatar
coldandtired
UKCS Admin
 
Player: coldandtired
STEAM_0:0:27915503
 
Posts: 3503
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:40 pm
Location: 18th Century Europe



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Kaelan002 on Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:57 pm

Also - if you're running lower than Windows 8.1, make sure you run the WEI performance benchmark (this thing) after installing the SSD. If you don't, it won't recognise it as such and won't set it up for garbage collection (TRIM).

You can check if you do a WindowsKey+R, and run dfrgui.exe. It should show as a 'Solid State Drive'.
There are 10 types of people in the world: those that know binary, those that don't, and those that didn't expect this joke to be in base 3.

[video =373,150]http://a.pomf.se/ixefrf.webm[/video] Now shhhh Kaelan... OOOOOOH
pomf.se is ded. :'(
User avatar
Kaelan002
UKCS Sponsor
UKCS iSeries Attendee
 
Player: Kae
STEAM_0:1:29878923
 
Posts: 2166
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:28 pm
Location: The restaurant at the end of the universe



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Silkie on Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:27 pm

It's already set to AHCI mode. Ta, I have to flash the system BIOS as well while I'm at it. OS I'm not sure about. I'm looking at the price on 8.1 ATM.
"I prefer the company of animals more than the company of humans.
Certainly, a wild animal is cruel.
But to be merciless is the privilege of civilised humans."
User avatar
Silkie
Experienced Member
 
Player: Silkie
STEAM_0:0:523712
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: Somewhere Strange



Image

Re: Thinking about an upgrade

Postby Silkie on Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:45 pm

Can't believe I forgot to order a mounting bracket. Got a copy of 8.1 on the way as well.
"I prefer the company of animals more than the company of humans.
Certainly, a wild animal is cruel.
But to be merciless is the privilege of civilised humans."
User avatar
Silkie
Experienced Member
 
Player: Silkie
STEAM_0:0:523712
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm
Location: Somewhere Strange



Image

PreviousNext

Return to PC World, Technology and Gadgets

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests