Game Refund

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Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:38 pm

I will put this here as it is relevant to those purchasing games.

At Christmas I paid for a game through Steam and for one reason or another it failed to work on my PC, the game was Arma 3 and unless I was willing to go the whole hog, updating drivers and reading through all the notes as to what the problem was, I wasn't going to get anywhere.
I had left the game on and sat down to watch a bit of TV, as you do, then as it was still excruciatingly slow and was not allowing me to shut down properly, I did a cntrl alt delete and exited. Quite pissed off with the process I decided to ask for a refund, putting it down to experience. Its not as if the computer or gfx card is slow by any means, and it far exceeds the spec required to play the game.
Back came the reply, that because the total game time was over 2 hours, they would not give a refund.
I again tried to contact them with no way of doing so, except yet again to apply for a refund. Again the same reply. Now knowing quite a bit about consumer law, I decided to try another tactic and make my complaint about the lack of refund, pointing out that although it was Steam policy to not give refunds except under their frame work, that same frame work was in breach of UK consumer law and they could be sued. Wow, would you believe it, the same robotic answer came back with no reference to anything I had said.

At this point I gave up and as I had paid through Paypal, decided to make a claim against Steam through them. As Paypal has to conform with the law of the country they do business and UK, and I think Eu, law states that any change in consumer rights can only be an addition to the current legislation and cannot over ride that legislation, then a consumer is allowed to claim full restitution within the 30 day framework.

Duly Paypal have claimed this money back from Steam and repaid me. It may have taken a while, but Steam still refused to make sensible contact to resolve any issue. The only notice I had from Steam was to say the following.

How to resolve the dispute:

The dispute must be closed on the PayPal website. To do this, log in to your PayPal account and respond to the case in "My Account > Resolution Center". Once the dispute is closed and the funds are released back to Steam, your content will be accessible again.

If you are having any issues or difficulties with the purchase itself, please close the dispute with PayPal and allow us to help you by contacting us directly.


They must think people are stupid, as closing the dispute with any payment body, be that Paypal a credit/debit card providor, will end up with you loosing any case you have. Steam were given the chance prior to a case being opened and they screwed up.


The Moral of all this :
If you have a refusal for a refund for any game, even once, take the matter up with the payment body, be that PayPal or your credit/debit card issuer. They must comply with the Sales of goods act in your country, making them you best course of action and not Steam.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Shuriken on Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:59 pm

I could be remembering it wrong but I am almost certain people have had their steam/paypal accounts terminated/suspended for charge backs on steam purchases.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:37 pm

That is illegal and not only is it in direct contravention of the sales of goods act, but it is theft.

Paypal accounts have nothing to do with Steam. Whether or not they accept purchases in the future via Paypal, makes little difference as the same procedure with any bank is followed. Any Credit or Debit card issuer has to comply with the law for the country the purchase takes place. As far as Steam is concerned, they must comply with the law of the country they wish to trade in. They could of course say that they will not trade with me in the future, which is not a problem, but to block my account which holds quite a number of games I have legally purchased is illegal, unless they make those games available to me in hard copy.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby dmc25_uk on Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:26 pm

so have you lost your steam account then ?


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Re: Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:40 pm

No
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Slavechild on Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:50 pm

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-03-20-making-sense-of-steams-refund-policy
Might be worth a read, also on the which site re: the consumer act and refunds of digital downloads it states:
Cancelling a digital download

Digital downloads are given their own unique category under the Consumer Contracts Regulations and are therefore not services or goods.
If you want to download something within 14 days of buying it, you will have to give your consent to waive the 14 day cooling-off period.
If you don’t give your consent, the 14 day cooling-off period still applies but you won't be able to download your digital content until this period has ended.
This is to prevent you from changing your mind after you have downloaded the content. Source


So you might be walking a very grey thin line.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:17 am

Steam is on a pretty dodgy footing, given that all download content must work as advertised. Consumer law is a minefield, but Eu law and UK law are two different things.

I did read the Which article, but it only confirms what I have said before.See Consumer Rights Act 2015 (1 October 2015). https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... al-content
As with all UK consumer law, any amendments can be made as an addition to the law, but may not replace the law under any circumstance. In other words, unlike under US law, companies can write their own contract to supersede all other contracts, except in the UK, where any such contract is illegal.
Even Which tells you of the 30 day period, and it also states the following which encompasses other laws under advertising laws.
Digital content must be:
of satisfactory quality
fit for a particular purpose
as described by the seller

As the game failed to work as advertised, then the terms of the contract were broken. Further to this, Steam have tried to circumvent the law, by stating that they only allow an accumulative 2 hour window where the game is active in which to affect a repair. Which also breaks UK Law.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... ts/enacted


The law will also clarify rules around refunds, repairs or replacements of faulty goods. This includes, for the first time, the creation of a specific timeframe of 30 days for consumers to reject a faulty item and get a full refund.


No matter how Steam frames their policy, it cannot override the law, and they can be prosecuted under UK law if they try and flout the law. A consumer may even challenge the small print in a contract after purchase.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Slavechild on Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:01 pm

I can't see how the data could be "faulty" (a term that isn't use in Consumer Rights Act 2015) or how it breaks the contract activating your rights to a repair, replacement or refund when it's your own inability to correctly install and configure the game.

Little_Devil wrote:unless I was willing to go the whole hog, updating drivers and reading through all the notes as to what the problem was, I wasn't going to get anywhere.


Arma 3 is processor and RAM heavy and even if you're within the minimum specs it will run slow especially if you can't be arsed to adjust the settings to a point where you can play it.

As the game failed to work as advertised
Pahh I can't see steam advertising Arma 3 running at 1080p with 60fps on every system, can you? but it does advertise the game as "Experience true combat gameplay in a massive military sandbox. Deploying a wide variety of single- and multiplayer content, over 20 vehicles and 40 weapons, and limitless opportunities for content creation, this is the PC’s premier military game. Authentic, diverse, open - Arma 3 sends you to war." which it is.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:26 pm

Slavechild wrote:I can't see how the data could be "faulty" (a term that isn't use in Consumer Rights Act 2015) or how it breaks the contract activating your rights to a repair, replacement or refund when it's your own inability to correctly install and configure the game.

Wow massive assumption from someone who has no knowledge of a persons abilities and furthermore no idea of what adjustments were made. The computer is not a basic machine or anywhere near the minimum spec given for the game.

The whole point of the Law is so that any person who downloads the software, should be able to use it within the specifications provided. To then limit a persons ability to make adjustments by saying there is a 2 hour window of operation in which you can ask for a refund, is not legal, no matter which way you want to cry about it.

Pahh I can't see steam advertising Arma 3 running at 1080p with 60fps on every system, can you? but it does advertise the game as "Experience true combat gameplay in a massive military sandbox. Deploying a wide variety of single- and multiplayer content, over 20 vehicles and 40 weapons, and limitless opportunities for content creation, this is the PC’s premier military game. Authentic, diverse, open - Arma 3 sends you to war." which it is.

Stupid statement, which you clearly have not read properly yourself. How can anyone "Experience true combat gameplay" when moving at a snails pace. I have no idea what you call true combat game play.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Slavechild on Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:37 pm

Little_Devil wrote:Wow massive assumption from someone who has no knowledge of a persons abilities and furthermore no idea of what adjustments were made. The computer is not a basic machine or anywhere near the minimum spec given for the game.

Lets have a little post about your specs and what you did with the game then?

Little_Devil wrote:As the game failed to work as advertised

Link to the advertising you seem to have seen and feel that you have been mislead by?

Little_Devil wrote:The whole point of the Law is so that any person who downloads the software, should be able to use it within the specifications provided. To then limit a persons ability to make adjustments by saying there is a 2 hour window of operation in which you can ask for a refund, is not legal, no matter which way you want to cry about it.


Here's a link to the Consumer Rights Act and under CHAPTER 3 you'll find sections 34, 35, and 36.
Where have your statutory rights, under a goods contract, not been met? also note that unless 34, 35, or 36 apply then you can't enact:
    42 Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about digital content
    43 Right to repair or replacement
    44 Right to price reduction
    45 Right to a refund

Little_Devil wrote:To then limit a persons ability to make adjustments by saying there is a 2 hour window of operation in which you can ask for a refund, is not legal, no matter which way you want to cry about it.

The time limit is a "no-questions asked" refund, that is on top of your right as a consumer under the Consumer Rights Act. When you "cry" and throw your toys out of your basket by using paypal to force rights that might not have been yours to force it puts your contracts with steam in danger and possibly even your paypal.

Paypals T&C, taking note of "9. Restricted Activities"
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:24 am

You clearly don't know what you are talking about, given the replies you have given to my post.
Why would I need to give my computer specs, as I have already stated they are above the minimum and is completely irrelevant in this context.

Steam have published the minimum specs that the game should run on, for anyone to read.

The time limit is a "no-questions asked" refund
,
No it is not

Steam wrote:Requests are considered on a case by case basis and are not typically issued for purchases of released products that are more than 14 days old, or if the purchased product has more than 2 hours of playtime. For in-game items the refund period is 48 hours and the item must not have been consumed, modified, or transferred.


If you are even bothered to read things in context, you will see Steams conditions do not comply with UK law.

Paypal never make reimbursements lightly and do have to comply with the law of the country of the purchaser and seller. As Steam have clearly shown (according to Paypal) that they have not complied with UK law, then a repayment was issued.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Slavechild on Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:04 pm

You clearly can't back up an argument and awful advice with actual quotes, facts or behave in a way a moderator should behave. So back on track with the facts?

Or assumptions in this case seeing as we don't have your specs to work with. Any reasonable person would post them, and personally I'll presume you barely scratch recommended specs as you obviously have a bottleneck somewhere you feel you have to hide. Steam isn't advertising a standard of gameplay, you ran the game, congrats *party popper*.

Little_Devil wrote:No it is not


Yes it really is, but I will admit that not many people can spend mere seconds looking at a web page, reading crystal clear text clearly stating "You can request a refund for nearly any purchase on Steam—for any reason. Maybe your PC doesn't meet the hardware requirements; maybe you bought a game by mistake; maybe you played the title for an hour and just didn't like it.

It doesn't matter. Valve will, upon request via help.steampowered.com, issue a refund for any reason, if the request is made within fourteen days of purchase, and the title has been played for less than two hours. There are more details below, but even if you fall outside of the refund rules we’ve described, you can ask for a refund anyway and we’ll take a look."
so I'll chalk that down to just an oversight on your part.

Little_Devil wrote:Paypal never make reimbursements lightly and do have to comply with the law of the country of the purchaser and seller. As Steam have clearly shown (according to Paypal) that they have not complied with UK law, then a repayment was issued.


Any actual facts you can link to go with your ambiguous reply? I would say you have to comply with reasonable contract law just as much as Paypal and Steam have to comply with consumer rights and contract law.

You've probably damaged your contract with steam and possibly abused paypals refund systems, if Steam kicks up a fuss with paypal about your abuse of their refund system to break a contract you could lose access to your paypal account.

Paypal T&C's wrote:9. Restricted Activities
    9.1 Restricted Activities. In connection with your use of our website, your Account, or the Services, or in the course of your interactions with PayPal, a User or a third party, you will not:

    b. Breach any law, statute, contract, or regulation (including, without limitation, those governing financial services including anti-money laundering, consumer protections, unfair competition, anti-discrimination and false advertising);
    ...
    e. Provide false, inaccurate or misleading Information;
    ...
    m. Abuse (as either a buyer or seller) of our Online Dispute Resolution process and/or PayPal Buyer Protection;
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:35 pm

Slavechild wrote:You clearly can't back up an argument and awful advice with actual quotes, facts or behave in a way a moderator should behave. So back on track with the facts?

If my word is not good enough for you, then tough. I have given factual information but all you want to do is ignore it, or try and apply it as you see fit, ignoring any of those facts.

I can see that all you want to do is argue the toss, regardless of any facts given so I will bow out of this since you clearly know more than both myself and the legal profession.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Slavechild on Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:20 pm

True it is pointless arguing over a bad choice that has already been made but to suggest others do it is ludicrous.

At least take away from this the links to the Consumer Rights Act and Steams refund policy, so that you and others can hopefully make an educated decision when buying a game and the refund process that's involved.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Security on Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:33 pm

Shuriken wrote:I could be remembering it wrong but I am almost certain people have had their steam/paypal accounts terminated/suspended for charge backs on steam purchases.

That is what I have heard as well.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Fragmaster on Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:05 am

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_art ... -WFZC-5519

Payment Fraud
Any fraudulent credit card use, credit card chargebacks, or Paypal chargebacks (regardless of when the transaction occurred).
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Slavechild on Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:38 pm

Little_Devil's point was that he could charge back on a game by incorrectly citing consumer rights laws that didn't apply.

The steam forums are full of posts asking why their accounts have been suspended after a paypal chargeback.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby EvolvedMonkey on Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:02 pm

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Re: Game Refund

Postby Little_Devil on Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:02 pm

Slavechild wrote:Little_Devil's point was that he could charge back on a game by incorrectly citing consumer rights laws that didn't apply.

The steam forums are full of posts asking why their accounts have been suspended after a paypal chargeback.


Actually you are incorrect as you actually cite the law when making a charge back. Steam is a content delivery system whereby they cannot legally suspend your account only the game you have not paid for. Whether someone decides to legally pursue this or not is down to them, but given most are inexperienced, I would presume not.

As Evolved has pointed out, Steam have already run foul of the ACC and there are actions pending in the Eu, based on similar grounds.
Paypal are not stupid and have their own legal team, who are, I am sure, consulted, whenever legislation is quoted correctly.

As a UK judge recently pointed out to a company, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 clearly states the following: "The terms must be prominent so that an average, well-informed, observant and circumspect consumer would be aware of them."

This means that any terms must be shown first, not a description of the game with a footnote to open up another window or dialog box.
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Re: Game Refund

Postby Binerexis on Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:06 pm

" As a UK judge recently pointed out to a company, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 clearly states the following: "The terms must be prominent so that an average, well-informed, observant and circumspect consumer would be aware of them." "

They could easily cite their refund page for that as they have an FAQ which details out the process and what makes a game eligible for a refund.
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