[WIP] de_caccamo

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[WIP] de_caccamo

Postby Ross(Frightened Creature) on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:34 pm

Noticed there hasn't been a new WIP topic for some time.....

I've recently had a bit of free time to kill in a break from Uni, so I thought I'd make a quick return to mapping. It's a dawn/dusk italy style map based on a small Sicilian town.

As you can see, it's still far from finished, so it's lacking detail and is liable to have it's layout changed for better gameplay. Still, hopefully I'll have something tangible fairly soon.

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Main Street

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Main Street Corner

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Short A

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Overlooking Bombsite A, in its present condition

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The side road under A

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Another view from that area

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An early shot of a cathedral overlooking B. It's already out of date.

Any crticisms or comments would be greatly welcome.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby alias on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:15 pm

The main street seems to be having a huge straight track. This area probably will be outcamped by snipers, and snipers generaly make the flow of the map boring. Maybe have some car to block the view a bit and a sideroute that crosses with it.

Also, your environment light seems a bit weird as if the light comes from below. check if the pitch on it is a positive or negative number. Negative should make the sun aim downward
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby Snowbat on Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:03 pm

Yeah I agree with alias: the lighting seems to be coming from a weird source. Probably just a minor thing to change.
Other than that, I'd place more decals and put some more detail in it, but you said you were planning to do so anyways.

The best way to now if a map is enjoyable or not, is by testing it with friends and see how it plays out.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby alias on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:59 pm

Snowbat wrote:I'd place more decals and put some more detail in it, but you said you were planning to do so anyways.

You allways should detail the map in the end. In beta its unrecommended as alot might change. Ross has more experience than you might know.

In some cases maps dont even use normal textures, thats something that the mapper decides. In tf2 its most often used as in css textures at least decide of some area is realistic, tf2 doesnt have that restriction.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby Ross(Frightened Creature) on Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:43 am

Thanks for the feedback lads.

The pictures so far are from my first few compiles, where I was trying to get a sense of scale. The lighting problem was from me neglecting to change the environmental light pitch, which was why they all looked a little odd. Hopefuly these shots with the fixed lighting make some of the offshooting paths a bit more obvious. I'm still likely to change some other areas of the map where I feel the site lines are a little too long (I was happy for the mid to be a bit sniper happy - there are a fair few other routes).

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Not a very exciting post I'm afraid, but the map is progressing at a fairly satisfactory pace.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby MotsMan on Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:55 am

Looking very nice :)

Contact me when it's done/nearing finished and i'll organise it for one of our fortnightly map tests.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby alias on Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:47 pm

Ross(Frightened Creature) wrote:(I was happy for the mid to be a bit sniper happy - there are a fair few other routes)

I know the problem in css with sniper happy routes is less extreme than tf2 as in css its far more easier to counter them. However, making a route that is basicly perfect for sniping isnt a good idea. You get dust2 like effects where obviously being sniped from the start isnt fun. For that reason i do suggest to prevent sniping routes as much as possible unless its unavoidable due to the looks of the map. A car that blocks some of the view can already help.

Then also, if you have a sniping route give it in advantage of the attacking team. This is exactly why the dust2 sniper spot from the spawn is well accepted. Simply as the defending side has such route aswel except less good. The route on the 2nd and 3rd screen (with the car) still looks a bit too sniper friendly but as i dont know the overal shape i cant judge about that. For this we should need a topdown view (with spawns and capsites marked on it).

Making a sniper route 'just because sniping is fun' isnt good. It should fit the map and its balance. And the way to counter that are side routes near that main path. Time in exchange for survival on this part is what can keep it interesting.

Another thing. try to use some displacements on some parts. Displacements can give that small variety of height which will make it look more realistic. In alhpa state this isnt needed but even just making a few faces a displacement and giving it some random noise can do wonders for the looks. Even on stone tile floors this can improve the looks. Mainly on long straight paths this is well noticed as then the floor looks less flat.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby Ross(Frightened Creature) on Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:57 pm

Again, thanks for all the feedback people, I promise I am taking it on board.

In regards to the sniper route - the teams (particularly terrorists) can effectively bypass this area of the map altogether, and most of the traffic will be across it rather than down it. My current plan is to optimise the map as it stands at the moment, and if it performs smoothly, I'll add a few more routes and change a couple of the areas, so this area will play a less central role in quick access to areas.

The current iteration of the map is still a little way off completion yet, but I have detailed an area (the route to long B) to a fairly representative standard (minus the day glo plants):

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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby Ross(Frightened Creature) on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:33 pm

I've been busy recently, so work on the map's slowed. However, I can provide a rough early overview. The layout will probably be similar to this in my first beta, with the exception of the grassy rockface between the T Spawn and A, which I'll replace with some more urban surroundings.

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The version that I provide to UKCS may be very different of course.
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“ If you want to know me, see Glen or Glenda. That's me, that's my story, no question. But Plan 9 is my pride and joy. We used Cadillac hubcaps for flying saucers in that.”

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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby alias on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:21 pm

It looks like the T's spawn a bit close to A and B. For a high player fast paced map that generaly does ok. but for lower player counts it will favor the T's most. I would suggest placing the T's just so they arrive about 5 seconds later at both sites so the CTs have just enough time to setup while not gaining the ideal spots.

Also, that outer section on the B side seems to be a long detour might be better to shorten that as long detours are more often giving an advantage to the side that is already stronger there (Defenders). however, if the building behind B can also be accessed you might widen the whole area to a state where the T's can basicly use that to get behind the CTs in order to surround them. Ideal in that would be that the T's will arive too late at that place for sure.

But then again, thats by just viewing the overview. Actual play can vary alot as its generaly decided by smaller objects.

A good thing is that the map uses the 88 shape which is generaly giving a decent flow.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby Ross(Frightened Creature) on Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:16 pm

After some time out, I've revisited the map and got it into a test suitable state. The map layout remains similar to the overview previously shown, but I've added a few small modifications which improve the detail levels and should hopefully improve gameplay a bit. Playtesting with a larger number of players should help guide me on layout and flow changes.

Here are a few screenshots:

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Bombiste A; CT Side

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Bombsite A Overview

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Bombiste B; CT side

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Bombsite B Overview

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T Spawn

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CT Spawn

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Bank

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Centre Route, T side

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Centre Coutyard

And the map file:

http://files.ukcs.net/12922/de_caccamo_a2.zip

Comments and criticism as ever welcome.
Last edited by Ross(Frightened Creature) on Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby A Killer Potato on Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:34 pm

There are a few issues before it's ready for play testing:


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-An invalid spawn point for CTs

- Lots of clipping! I found many places you shouldn't be able to access:


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Behind T spawn


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The balconies at T spawn (the lower and upper need clipping)


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ramp left from T spawn towards A


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roof above A


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to the left of A (from CT spawn)



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The tunnel to the right of A (from CT spawn) has a clip brush too low, with a boost someone can go behind it



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The ramp in T spawn is going to be the main route people will take. Not many will queue for the small rope ladder. If you lower the ends of the ramp people can jump and run up it pretty fast, allowing maybe 3 players up at a time (I would jump up there).



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The clipping next to T spawn is too low, with a boost anyone can get out of the map.



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No clipping on the wine cabinets above B.

The ladder in CT spawn should be static. Running into it and knocking it over slows you down and can be annoying.

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The balcony in B can be jumped across to, but the next platform (the dividing wall) is clipped off. It isn't indicative and the only way to find out is by jumping, which will hurt you when you fall.

-An aesthetic issue, the doors on most of the doorways are too wide to actually close :p

-The doors in the tunnel next to B are not obviously openable. They do not have door handles and do not open when you run up to them, only when you press e. Also, they open a bit too slowly and are very narrow for a multiplayer level. Personally I think they should remain open after being opened, not potentially close on someones face.

-You can drop the bomb through the bank teller windows.

-It might help to add <- A bombsite route decals around the place to help with navigation. A radar overlay would also be very helpful. (I know its only an alpha :D)

-The layout is good, I did get a little confused at first running through some of the rooms; a few look very similar.

I like it though, look forward to playing on it in the future. :D
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby Ross(Frightened Creature) on Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:24 pm

Thanks go to Tato, who helped talk me through the fixes over PM.

I've made the wall appear more unappealing with a rather spikey fence topping it off

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The ramp's slightly more accessible with these sandbags - extending it further down would have made it harder to leave spawn

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And I've added signs for the bombsites

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In addition to all the invisible clips, of course.

I've updated the original upload link, and here's another one to prevent scrolling up

http://files.ukcs.net/12922/de_caccamo_a2.zip
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Re: [WIP] de_caccamo

Postby alias on Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:29 pm

Btw, a guide to clipping (which is in fact more important in tf2 due to rocket jumping):

Anything that is above the playground should be considered if it sticks out of the wall. either as brush or as prop.

For brushes just extend the clipping to the top of the map, anything below that could potentialy couse the issue of people using that. Obviously in CSS the clipping height isnt a problem if its above the max position people can get + 3 player heights. This already would require stacking. But even then, for the smoothness in editing touching the roof is better. If its a small brush making it func_illusionary or a func_brush that is nonsolid would work aswel (note that those objects are dynamic though where clipping isnt!).

If props stick out of the wall you can actualy do 2 things. If its a small thin prop just make it nonsolid. This wont be noticed and is a smooth solution. Its often already done on props like paintings on a wall (note, most of the valve ones have vphysics that work better so in those cases keep them solid). Laps that stick out of the wall generaly get a clipping box arround them that extends to the roof. Note however that if there is a jumpable area higher up that could allow you to get on that lamp that this isnt an option. For this you better just make it possible to stand on it. However, there is still a small detail. For smoothness you can actualy use multiple systems for clipping on props.

Use the bounding box if they can stand on the object (if its small, large objects would get bugged clipping). The bounding box servers as a square clipping box and allows objects to still hit it. As non solid bullets often pass. If you however decided to extend it to the roof add your clipping arround that bounding box. Any small piece sticking out of the object can be abused easily.

However, a side note in css is that depending on the map that in some cases you actualy want people to be able to get on unusual places. For example in italy it is fun if you can get on the roof of the market. Just be carefull if you allow it.

Alternatively you can also add a roof clip above the whole area. Even if they used an exploit to get higher you will still limit them. However, it does give players a dissatisfaction for doing so as their experimenting gets a lame finish. By just stopping their first move you at least showed its realy not possible and not worth trying.
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