Sooo what too say...

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Sooo what too say...

Postby Essence^ on Fri May 22, 2015 11:32 pm

The state of You're remaining server/s is a absolute joke.

Once apon a time UKCS WAS the best servers in the world.

Now it's a complete joke, why? Because it's no secret tf2 is dead.. Yet Most of the regulars still seem to enjoy team stacking EVERY round of EVERY game... Yes we all know you have a auto assign feature... and we all know how to avoid it. Yet if you call out those who abuse this mechanic you get admins calling you out saying "sorry i haven't noticed anyone doign this if i do i will deal with them" Holy shit man the same ppl do it for like 3 years stright now and YOU haven't noticed?

GTFO.

Sure you will "deal with it" maybe sometime next century when game is 100% dead.

Really saddens me seeing the best server i ever played in ANY game turn into complete trash.

/Rant OvEr pls send me your flame and excuses.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby ApacheFlame on Sat May 23, 2015 1:09 am

Mods: Please leave this public, ta.

I'm not going to flame you at all. You're obviously upset and that, for me is a positive. It means you actually have passion for the servers.

I think you know me well enough that I do try my best to sort out problems when they arise. If you want to talk this through more fluidly, then feel free to add me on steam again.

The intention of the system is that on join it dumps you straight into a team. If this is not working as intended then please let me know, as I haven't received complaints so far.

If there is a way to break the system then I will try and find a way to fix the loopholes, but at the end of the day there will be a limit to what can be done.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Enigma on Sat May 23, 2015 12:37 pm

Well know team stacker and potty mouth is complaining about team stacking. It's quite funny actually.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby ApacheFlame on Sat May 23, 2015 1:36 pm

Lets keep this civil. There will be no further reminders about this.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Angel on Sun May 24, 2015 2:40 pm

From the perspective as a long time player on the servers and barely a month out of my admin cradle.

It is very difficult to knowingly team stack with the current system in place as far as I can tell. Two critical parts help with this:

1: You can't join spectator in order to change teams manually or see who's on teams and who's what.
2: You cannot view the scoreboard on the welcome screen either so again you can't see who of your friends is on what team.

Your only choice is to auto join. Now I've seen occasions where the system broke and you could freely enter specatator mode but those are usually fixed fairly quickly.

At the end of the day though we all want to play with our friends, simply for the team play. I know i'm happier when I have someone on my team who I know will give me ubers so I can murder everyone with an OP Phlog. Ever since the auto-join system was put in place it has massively reduced the problems the previous rampant stacking created and rounds become far more even handed.

The only real way to game the system as far as I can see is to simply work outside it. You chat on steam, the 1st person on lets you know who's on what team and which team has a space. That 1st person can then tell his or her friend there's a slot free now and they can auto-assign themselves with a high chance of stacking to the same team. But frankly how can we possibly police that? Its completely outside our control and without direct proof we can't act on it. The only other way around this and is at least slightly more obvious are people rejoining the game repeatedly until they get onto the team they want. This is easier to spot simply because it tells you in chat repeatedly. That we can at least deal with.

However unless you force players to instantly join a team, completely skipping the welcome screen I see no way around that and something we simply have to live with.


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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby exxxie on Mon May 25, 2015 12:40 pm

Irony overload.

I haven't seen any evidence of stacking at all on #8. I've seen the worst offenders from the days before the autojoin playing on other servers however, so the autojoin has had the desired result in my opinion. Sometimes RNG throws you a less-than-optimal team, but that's much better than how things were (Blue constantly having to face a stack).


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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Epicurus on Tue May 26, 2015 2:45 pm

Just gonna post my thoughts and speculation here, as I have no love left for the community anymore.

There is a way to get past the auto-assign plugin. *snip* As seen above, most players don't use/know about this, so stacking a team with regulars is fairly impossible as of now, unless you personally know them and can hand out instructions. *snip*
As much as I've tested, *snip* every time an admin is online only 1 of them has warned me about doing it (pat yourself on the back).

As far as the servers being a joke goes, I kind of agree with Essence, however I don't think stacking is the main problem anymore. IIRC UKCS used to be packed full of comp players fresh off practice. It would be more beneficial to pub for a few hours instead of playing lobbies, because the skill level was much higher.
Nowadays I'm greeted with pyros running into the same sentry countless times, unable to learn from their mistakes. Demomen sitting behind a rock spamming pipes hoping to hit someone. Shit, I even went on #4 recently because snakewater was on, looking to warm up before a scrim. No, there were countless soldiers and demomen just sitting there spamming main. Nobody pushed flank, nobody pushed out of window, they just stood there, shooting, hoping someone would run into kitchen. Note that it had been 20 minutes since the round started, they'd been there for a while.
If that's how they have fun, fine. You're meant to have fun in a game, not everyone likes practicing 24/7. You can draw squares in tic-tac-toe if you want to. It just confuses me as I can not comprehend how this kind of playstyle would be considered fun by anyone playing/playing against it.

I believe most high-skilled regulars have left for this reason. Since some quit tf2 as well, there weren't that many good players to go up against. So, they resorted to stacking 1 team, instead of being bottlenecked by teammates who only care about getting more kills on their strange backburner. For a while, this worked, as you could have good teamplay with the satisfaction of victory. As the auto-join plugin was added (which I recommended, funnily enough), the remaining ~8 regulars were split into 4 on each team. Resulting in a 4v4 around the point/cart while the rest of the teams tried their best to climb up ladders. Pushes became 2 people running in with uber, defending meant setting up 7 sentries and hiding behind them. That is why I think most competent players left.
All of this is just the conclusion I came upon after discussing it with a few players. Whether the topic is right or wrong, at least post your own opinion about it, instead of running around screaming "lel essence u rude in game so we no listen 2 u pootis meme xD".

At the current state, I enjoy myself more in a Valve process server than on any UKCS server (something which I wouldn't have even thought about saying a few years ago). Better to play with ~200hr players who appreciate your advice than ~3000hr players who refuse to learn and instead call you a "fuctard".
Unforgivable.

tl;dr - open sub scout calls everyone bad.

Apache Edit: Appreciate the honest and frank response. Just edited out the specifics of how to get around the autojoin.


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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby ApacheFlame on Tue May 26, 2015 7:48 pm

Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the way to get around the plugin, but for obvious reasons I have edited the specifics out of your reply.

It should noted that admins can join spectate. This is for the purposes of evidence collection for hackers etc.

The bottom line is that there will always be a war of attrition. The more things we implement to try and stop stacking etc, the more people will try and find ways around it. There will be limits to what we can achieve.

The way you described getting around the plugin is not an easy fix, as far as I know. Although we can certainly react to it when admins see it, now that we know about it.

It is only when we are told about things like this, that we can look at ways to to mitigate or fix it. We are reliant on the community to self police, to a certain extent. The autojoin was implemented because of community concerns over stacking and all in all I think it has been a good move.

If you have any suggestions for making the community better, then I am all ears. Just remember that we can't force people to take your advice ;)
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby exxxie on Wed May 27, 2015 1:25 pm

Interesting thoughts Epicurus. Not sure if you ever go to spuf but there is a thread lamenting the exodus of veteran players away from TF2, and its not just a "lol gaem iz ded" thread. There are some intersting posts. http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... &t=3283324


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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Enigma on Fri May 29, 2015 10:16 am

exxxie wrote:Interesting thoughts Epicurus. Not sure if you ever go to spuf but there is a thread lamenting the exodus of veteran players away from TF2, and its not just a "lol gaem iz ded" thread. There are some intersting posts. http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... &t=3283324
That thread is about 4 years late. TF2 died with f2p and a huge influx of potatoes, for which TF2 is a first multiplayer FPS game they ever played. Wish someone would just rip off vanilla TF2 and started to sell it for $50. I would instantly buy 10 copies.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby alias on Fri May 29, 2015 7:27 pm

Enigma wrote:
exxxie wrote:Interesting thoughts Epicurus. Not sure if you ever go to spuf but there is a thread lamenting the exodus of veteran players away from TF2, and its not just a "lol gaem iz ded" thread. There are some intersting posts. http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... &t=3283324
That thread is about 4 years late. TF2 died with f2p and a huge influx of potatoes, for which TF2 is a first multiplayer FPS game they ever played.

More likely the f2p step is why tf2 is still alive. Most games at some point get their common players to leave. Rarely anyone will even stick 5 years to a game. Its mainly valve bringing new content that made that take longer.

But even that is incomplete as there are steps which made it far worse:
A game lives by its communities, communities make it easy for people to find a group. However, communities often dont want to stick to stuff only valve accepts. There are alot of custom maps that people want to play. 1 map a year from valve simply isnt enough. But valve decided that quickplay is a good idea to get newbies into the 'perfect' tf2 situation. Partialy they are right, you want people to have a good game on tf2. However, they forgot that quickplay systems are the perfect system to attract the worst possible communities who just try to abuse that system. So for that valve just added more settings people could choose.

But on that many just take the default selection and go with that. There is a reason why payload is the #1 gamemode. Its purely because of quickplay. The random option is not the default one, payload is. Many communites at that point already stopped at tf2 and left, they were forced to go by valve rules and they simply didnt want that. Why disallow custom maps, why disallow settings that improve balance, why disallow 32players etc?

And this made the ratio of good/bad servers worse. Instead of solving the issue of getting rid of bad servers, they just decided to restrict servers that want to give a good experience yet also want more out of the game. So custom maps became a bad thing. But they didnt stop there... instead they decided to still keep ignoring the issue.

Their repeated ignorance of accepting that quickplay is **** and their way of executing it being even worse is what made tf2 die. They hogged all the players to their server. And once a community died, people didnt care finding a new one. They would use quickplay.

Then came mvm, a mode where it was valve only for items. There was not a single chance for a pub server. Mann up gave items, bootcamp does not. Especialy since early on these items were valuable no one would go bootcamp. The same pattern repeated at 2cities which gave even more value to items.

And finaly dota was released. The major backstab as it removed probably about 50% of the tf2 regulars. Regulars you dont see coming back.

And which part of the tf2 community is still very alive? Its the f2p part. And how long will it be able to continue? Probably for a very long time. The tf2 servers are easily managed and they can just disable them when needed. Valve servers are nearly allways full. And the skill level isnt realy that far off from the day f2p was released. That skill level is fine for many players. Its lower than community servers. But getting steamrolled by stacking isnt fun.

Even ukcs had the major flaw of not doing enough against stacking. But its not just ukcs. All community's suffer from it. People want to play with people they like. On enemy teams you cannot do that.

And also, tf2 is dead?
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
I have to say that tf2 has a very high player count seeing it slightly below gta.

f2p and matchmaking might have been poorly performed, but they keep tf2 alive.
Enigma wrote:Wish someone would just rip off vanilla TF2 and started to sell it for $50. I would instantly buy 10 copies.

Good luck playing alone in that case as that is called piracy and it would require dedication from the players itself to keep it alive in such way, and in some countries you realy dont want to take the risk of paying $50k for ripping an 8 year old game. At most you could do it with a mod... And there already lies a problem as not alot of people would bother going for that mod, regardless of price. The price would become an additional barrier. So a paid version is not only piracy, its also a bad idea.

And the vanilla part, comp tf2 is NOT vanilla. Not even close. If it would be vanilla then it would use default settings. In classic tf2 that would mean no class limits. so 3 medics 3 demoman would be accepted. And if its recent tf2 then have fun with banned weapons as they shouldnt be banned.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Enigma on Sat May 30, 2015 5:53 am

TF2 without F2P, even half dead, would still be better than the abomination we've got right now. I would honestly rather play a game with small, but loyal player base, than having to deal with thousands of gibusvision players who can barely move around the map.

But it's not only the players. Just look at the weapon balance. Things like BFB, Reserve Shooter, Wrangler, Rescue Ranger, Short Circuit and about half a dozen others have no place in this game. It's like they were designed by someone, who was in vegetative state for decades. And why is there so much self-heal? I thought that medic was the one supposed to be doing the healing, not unlocks.

Those two are actually the reason why all I do nowadays is log in, kill m4dny with LnL across map for 2 hours and then go play something better.

This game died for me in summer 2011 and nothing can revert it. It's just another stupid f2p, cash cow parody of an FPS game.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Slavechild on Sat May 30, 2015 8:40 am

Coming from someone who's spent a huge amount of time on 2fort I welcome new players as they are the lifeblood of 24/7 servers. With regard to weps personally there's a counter for any setup you may be facing, you just have to move out of your comfort zone and change class, for example changing to heavy when there's a short circuit engi or even as basic as changing to pyro when there are spies.

Personally I think the anti-stacking works well, having spent a little time on other servers recently, to have a peek at what's around, being steamrolled every round by what I can only guess were the regulars of those servers wasn't fun. One round our little team of new players turned the tides and we won a round but even then the MVP from the other team moved teams near the end just to keep his winning streak.

Every server has its problems but it's good to air them as it gets things sorted.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby alias on Sat May 30, 2015 5:23 pm

Enigma wrote:TF2 without F2P, even half dead, would still be better than the abomination we've got right now. I would honestly rather play a game with small, but loyal player base, than having to deal with thousands of gibusvision players who can barely move around the map.

The gibus is the lowest indication that they are a player that at least has played for a little longer than just 1 day. But i still see quite a bit of regulars which still wear it just to anoy the veterans.
Enigma wrote:But it's not only the players. Just look at the weapon balance. Things like BFB, Reserve Shooter, Wrangler, Rescue Ranger, Short Circuit and about half a dozen others have no place in this game. It's like they were designed by someone, who was in vegetative state for decades. And why is there so much self-heal? I thought that medic was the one supposed to be doing the healing, not unlocks.

This already started much earlier. The weapon balance was broken since the first time the released new weapons. And everyone accepted that. Its why the stock melee weapons are all underpowered.
Enigma wrote:Those two are actually the reason why all I do nowadays is log in, kill m4dny with LnL across map for 2 hours and then go play something better.

I just go mvm, still potatoes there. But at least you can get in groups of regulars there. The teamwork on mvm is generaly above that of pub tf2.
Enigma wrote:This game died for me in summer 2011 and nothing can revert it. It's just another stupid f2p, cash cow parody of an FPS game.

Nothing can revert it yes, not even a mod with a cost of $50. Tf2 is indeed a cash cow these days. However, comparing to call of duty i still find it a less evil cash cow.

Anyway, i still have fun with MvM (sometimes a valve pub pvp game). And otherwise borderlands.
Slavechild wrote:With regard to weps personally there's a counter for any setup you may be facing, you just have to move out of your comfort zone and change class, for example changing to heavy when there's a short circuit engi or even as basic as changing to pyro when there are spies.

There exactly lies the problem. People dont want that, its why the new weapons were accepted by many. Its so they dont have to. That some are heavily broken is a side effect.
And worse is, valve's attempts at fixing broke MvM balance to a poor state. (although the team itself has still a decision ability to just make it harder - which on random games isnt needed).
Slavechild wrote:Personally I think the anti-stacking works well, having spent a little time on other servers recently, to have a peek at what's around, being steamrolled every round by what I can only guess were the regulars of those servers wasn't fun. One round our little team of new players turned the tides and we won a round but even then the MVP from the other team moved teams near the end just to keep his winning streak.

The 2fort server doesnt realy grab alot of skilled players. 2fort is considered one of the worst maps to play on with pubs (sniper spam). Thats why stacking doesnt realy affect that server even if it was done.

On valve servers they scramble the game whenever a team won twice in a row. And stacking still happens there. And in some cases its obvious to see that its a bad thing to happen. But those that realy want to stack will and you cant avoid that. You at most can get them to leave the game.
Slavechild wrote:Every server has its problems but it's good to air them as it gets things sorted.

Some problems you cant fix without changing some of the core things. In tf2 you cant as that means a whole weapon/class rebalance event.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby ScrewMeh* on Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:11 am

This already started much earlier. The weapon balance was broken since the first time the released new weapons. And everyone accepted that. Its why the stock melee weapons are all underpowered.


Scattergun
Medigun
Heavy minigun
Sticky launcher
Pipe Launcher

5 items off the top of my head in 5 seconds that are far from underpowered.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Enigma on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:22 am

ScrewMeh* wrote:
This already started much earlier. The weapon balance was broken since the first time the released new weapons. And everyone accepted that. Its why the stock melee weapons are all underpowered.


Scattergun
Medigun
Heavy minigun
Sticky launcher
Pipe Launcher

5 items off the top of my head in 5 seconds that are far from underpowered.
He said stock MELEE weapons are underpowered.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby ScrewMeh* on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:41 pm

Ahh so he did, 3am posting is bad for me :(
Kaworu wrote:One screweh is bad enough, 10 would be.. well.. the world wouldnt recover.


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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Essence^ on Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:24 pm

Enigma wrote:Well know team stacker and potty mouth is complaining about team stacking. It's quite funny actually.



You will have to try better than that troll. Yes im rather opinionated no secret in that. But i only ever auto assign. You can ask my biggest hater. I'm literally first on the server every game.

Unless you have something constructive to say to my legit gripe then pls just do one. (Btw I have never even seen you on the server you're so pathetic you need a new name every time you play to keep your k/d/a because you play like a complete prat & fear anyone knowing what loser we are dealing with.)

Thank you apache for being mature on this matter. What i was getting at is rather simple as the player count is stuck to us regs who maintain this great server, I have noticed a few who decide to stick in spec EVERY game so they can stack with their friends. Which is rather annoying since the server is such a small clique of people.

I wont bother mentioning names because I know it's wrong but I have tried to bring it up with admins before and have basically been hushed up. With such comments as "I have never noticed this but if i do i will deal with it"
That comment sounds fair, if it was not for the fact this happens literally every map of every game of every day of every week of every month.

You are right I have played on ukcs from lliterally the beginning (end of 1.5 cs 2003?) & only say what I do out of my love for this great chain of servers & brilliant community (I knew I was probably going to be flamed. like this engima trash tried. But still felt I should stick my neck out & take it)
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Ger-h on Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:08 pm

At present you can't stack #8(which is the only server part from #6 being up each night). Yes you might not stack but I have seen personally players stacking to the same team as you even disconnecting from a server to try an force the auto assigner to be on the same team. My own view on this is players always want to play with their friends which you get used to but at times where you get players who only play a curtain class when they have a pocket(including your self) (looking at the stats right now that's happening on #5 right now as a example) happens on #8 most nights been happening on ukcs for years it's annoying but part of the game can't really change it.
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Re: Sooo what too say...

Postby Essence^ on Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:25 pm

You can stack ger. HERE is how. You simply wait in spec

Get your friend to tell you the EXACT time someone joins BLUE.

You press auto assign = You are red. i.e you stacked with your red friend. Hope that clears it up. IT's very easy to do.
Last edited by Essence^ on Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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